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General and Everything Else => The Games and other Sierra Adventure stuff => Topic started by: Kawa on June 23, 2015, 06:54:33 PM

Title: 256-color views for SCI1.1 - a modest proposal of sorts
Post by: Kawa on June 23, 2015, 06:54:33 PM
Now that we can make SCI1.1 games, and considering the state of this site's views gallery, I'd like to make a nice set of starting views drawn in such a way that one might easily add things like shirts or jackets and such, maybe different hairdos, by simply pasting them onto the bare doll in one's favorite bitmap editor, and maybe have a couple preset combinations in .v56 format that you can stick in SCI Companion's sample folder and then recolor as needed okay let's face it you get the picture.

My only problem is that to make a base of adequate quality, I need another base, to paint over if not use a guide. So my question to the good folks of SCIprogramming.com: what games, not necessarily SCI, would you suggest be used as the foundation for this undertaking? The only requirement is that your suggestion has diagonals and standing frames.
Title: Re: 256-color views for SCI1.1 - a modest proposal of sorts
Post by: MusicallyInspired on June 23, 2015, 07:06:43 PM
I've been wondering about this myself. I'd think maybe PQ3 would be a decent base as it seems generic enough, but it doesn't have diagonals. PQ1VGA does, but most of them are kind of a top-down view instead of head on. There must be a head on view in there somewhere, though..
Title: Re: 256-color views for SCI1.1 - a modest proposal of sorts
Post by: troflip on June 23, 2015, 07:58:41 PM
That's a great idea.

If I were going to generate some default views, I would probably find a 3d model (and walking animation) I could use, and then render it out in various orientations. I dunno if it would work, but given how bad I am at drawing 2d animations, it's what I might try first.
Title: Re: 256-color views for SCI1.1 - a modest proposal of sorts
Post by: Kawa on June 23, 2015, 08:02:40 PM
I've been wondering about this myself. I'd think maybe PQ3 would be a decent base as it seems generic enough, but it doesn't have diagonals. PQ1VGA does, but most of them are kind of a top-down view instead of head on. There must be a head on view in there somewhere, though..
PQ1 and 3 alike so do have diagonals. In fact, the only differences between regular uniformed Sonny in PQ1 an PQ3 are that PQ1 has a different global palette and Sonny's head is different -- both in art and attachedness. His body, fleshtone aside, is exactly the same. My only gripe with these sprites is that you can tell they're digitized from video recordings, compared to GK1 and KQ6.

Which brings me to another thing to consider when picking a base: what height would you go for?
(http://i.imgur.com/SEqUqrs.png)
Larry gtfo outta here you're too cartoony to be eligible for this!

If I were going to generate some default views, I would probably find a 3d model (and walking animation) I could use, and then render it out in various orientations. I dunno if it would work, but given how bad I am at drawing 2d animations, it's what I might try first.
I actually tried that some time back, and frankly it looked like Sonny and WD-40 got bizzay in all the wrong ways.
Title: Re: 256-color views for SCI1.1 - a modest proposal of sorts
Post by: Collector on June 23, 2015, 08:03:33 PM
No reason that we shouldn't build a library of different styles of ego views. Maybe periodic community contests?
Title: Re: 256-color views for SCI1.1 - a modest proposal of sorts
Post by: Kawa on June 23, 2015, 08:17:54 PM
hahaha omg

(http://i.imgur.com/pTLMwzj.png)

Insert ancient aliens macro here.
Title: Re: 256-color views for SCI1.1 - a modest proposal of sorts
Post by: MusicallyInspired on June 23, 2015, 08:28:27 PM
Check again, Kawa, those Views from PQ3 (0-10 or whatever) are all top-down view angles and not head-on angles. PQ3's head-on angled view (View 123) has 4-directions only. Also, your height meter for the Sonny sprite isn't reliable because it's also a top-down angle, making him appear shorter than he is. This is PQ3 Sonny's actual height from View 123. PQ1VGA's Views all seem to be top-down. At least I can't find any head-on Views after a quick peruse through the resources.

Sonny's uniformed head-on View from PQ3 is 124.
Title: Re: 256-color views for SCI1.1 - a modest proposal of sorts
Post by: Kawa on June 23, 2015, 08:39:58 PM
I never said he wasn't. You sorta kinda implied PQ3 was head-on but had no diagonals. All I said was yes it did have diagonals, mistaking your comment as referring to the first view, not the special case you meant.

But more importantly, if the head-on sprite doesn't have diagonals... well, it's a blurry mess anyway.
Title: Re: 256-color views for SCI1.1 - a modest proposal of sorts
Post by: MusicallyInspired on June 23, 2015, 08:52:29 PM
Well, if they're top down I'd consider them not worth it...unless someone wanted a top-down Ego for all their rooms, I guess. Or even specific ones. But then we'd technically need bases for 16 directions, instead of 8.
Title: Re: 256-color views for SCI1.1 - a modest proposal of sorts
Post by: Cloudee1 on June 23, 2015, 08:58:51 PM
As for height, I would say a medium sized one... so the Hero or Roger I guess. Especially considering the scaling ability of SCI1.1.

I agree that a little cartoony is better than the PQ digitized images.

As far as clothes go, GK is probably the best choice in body... white shirt an jeans. In actuality, that is probably the direction I would go with size personally as I prefer a larger ego. At least I did with sci0 and 16 colors but that is just me and not something I would expect from most people. The larger the ego, the more detailed room, the less playable area.
Title: Re: 256-color views for SCI1.1 - a modest proposal of sorts
Post by: Kawa on June 23, 2015, 09:05:37 PM
Sixteen of 'em... *shudder*

So yeah! I'm kinda partial to Gabe myself anyway.
Title: Re: 256-color views for SCI1.1 - a modest proposal of sorts
Post by: MusicallyInspired on June 23, 2015, 10:17:20 PM
As far as a starting point, I was always thinking that we should just make a VGA version of the SCI0 Template Ego and branch off from there. Blue shirt, black pants, black/brown hair. If it's cartoony we're going for, though, SQ1VGA might be a good one to grab as it wasn't filmed from live action like SQ4's was. SQ1VGA's Roger is a little taller than SQ4 as well. I like the Gabe option too.
Title: Re: 256-color views for SCI1.1 - a modest proposal of sorts
Post by: Kawa on June 23, 2015, 10:45:48 PM
Studio template ego was actually on my mind when I wrote about presets in the OP.

Updort: take one, from scratch. Note that Gabriel and Devon are scaled to Roger's size.
(http://i.imgur.com/rzFqhp4.png)
Title: Re: 256-color views for SCI1.1 - a modest proposal of sorts
Post by: Kawa on June 24, 2015, 08:01:46 AM
Updort: first attempt at animating what I drew earlier. No hotspot centering, no filters.
(http://i.imgur.com/Z48JYQs.gif)
Yes I am aware of the jerky arms.
Title: Re: 256-color views for SCI1.1 - a modest proposal of sorts
Post by: MusicallyInspired on June 24, 2015, 11:37:45 AM
Wonderful work!
Title: Re: 256-color views for SCI1.1 - a modest proposal of sorts
Post by: Kawa on June 24, 2015, 11:58:12 AM
Wonderful work!
Thank you! No it isn't.

To demonstrate how easy it can be to work with a template like this, here's me as of earlier today:
(http://i.imgur.com/WjXdEv2.png)
The hair took longest.
Title: Re: 256-color views for SCI1.1 - a modest proposal of sorts
Post by: troflip on June 24, 2015, 12:32:06 PM
Nice progress!

... trying to think about how the "paper doll assembly system" could be incorporated into SCI companion...
Title: Re: 256-color views for SCI1.1 - a modest proposal of sorts
Post by: MusicallyInspired on June 24, 2015, 12:46:23 PM
Make it a separate tool from the View editor. Or at least an optional add-on system like the polygon system.
Title: Re: 256-color views for SCI1.1 - a modest proposal of sorts
Post by: Kawa on June 24, 2015, 12:59:18 PM
Make it a separate tool from the View editor. Or at least an optional add-on system like the polygon system.
Or just make sure there's a stable way to import sheets.

Or point me towards a document on the v56 format and I'll cover it myself as a little personal challenge ;)

Edit: nvm I forgot about ScummVM's wiki.
Title: Re: 256-color views for SCI1.1 - a modest proposal of sorts
Post by: troflip on June 24, 2015, 01:22:59 PM
I was more wondering about workflow and how the source information is stored. I agree for now, a separate tool is best (I have my hands full with just getting SCI Companion into a polished build).

Like how do you control the layering? Does each piece (hair/paints/shirt) have a layer (or does the layering need to be per pixel?), or does it just depend on you stack them? How do you change the color of things? Are there just presets, or can we do something smart with changing hues, etc...

SCI Companion can import gifs and or a sequence of image files, but only 1 loop at a time. Hotspot information is lost when you use a bunch of files. It's mostly retained using gifs (relative frame positioning is retained - export from SV.exe and import into SCI Companion to see), but the absolute hotspot information can be lost depending how the gif is set up.

The best way to get the SCI 1.1 view specs is to look at the ScummVM or SCI Companion source code (https://github.com/icefallgames/SCICompanion/blob/master/SCICompanionLib/Src/Resources/View.cpp).
Title: Re: 256-color views for SCI1.1 - a modest proposal of sorts
Post by: Kawa on June 24, 2015, 01:39:07 PM
Haha sniped me :D Separate tool it is!

Layering
I'd probably have two layers per item, one in front and one in back. Thus long hair might have the bangs in the front layer for all but the (diagonal) back directions, where it's in the back layer instead, and the rest of the hair in the back layer, but in the front for the back directions if that makes sense.
Then, I might do a thing where, assuming the character is on layer 0, you can change the z-index of each part, where that part's back layer is automatically the inverse. So you might have a character with a jacket, shirt, and pants, and the shirt and pants overlap a bit:
3 Jacket
2 Shirt
1 Pants
0 Ego
-1 Pants
-2 Shirt
-3 Jacket
Then you shift the order for the pants to tuck in the shirt, and that'd set the pants to 2 and shirt to 1, and their back layers to -2 and -1 respectively, leaving the jacket on top of it all:
3 Jacket
2 Pants
1 Shirt
0 Ego
-1 Shirt
-2 Pants
-3 Jacket
bro where are your shoes

Colors
Each layer I would allow an arbitrary color remap. Imagine if you will the classic SCI palette, and look at the pics of Template and me that I posted. Boils down to remapping the pants layer as [ 2: 48, 3: 49, 4: 50 ] doesn't it?

Hotspots
This is why I wanted the v56 format spec. Instead of importing it all loop-by-loop or worse and redefining all the lost data, you'd just import a v56 file that my tool produces. I'll worry about the project file format myself ;)
Title: Re: 256-color views for SCI1.1 - a modest proposal of sorts
Post by: troflip on June 24, 2015, 01:54:45 PM
Colors
Each layer I would allow an arbitrary color remap. Imagine if you will the classic SCI palette, and look at the pics of Template and me that I posted. Boils down to remapping the pants layer as [ 2: 48, 3: 49, 4: 50 ] doesn't it?

Yeah, I think so. I was thinking you'd also want to lighten/darken stuff to, but you can achieve that by shifting things within a "color zone" in the palette, as long as the original isn't using the full range.

Hotspots
This is why I wanted the v56 format spec. Instead of importing it all loop-by-loop or worse and redefining all the lost data, you'd just import a v56 file that my tool produces. I'll worry about the project file format myself ;)

Beware, it's pretty complicated. Mostly because of two things:
- there are a lot of offset and size fields within the format that need to point just at the right place, and many of them are redundant (but still need to be in sync with each other). This is somewhat simplified if you don't embed a palette.
- the cel image data uses a form of run length encoding. Although one of the "commands" in the encoding is "use the next 127 colors literally", so that would actually simplify things a bit if you just output it like that.
Title: Re: 256-color views for SCI1.1 - a modest proposal of sorts
Post by: Kawa on June 24, 2015, 02:44:28 PM
Still a bit too much snap on the arm, maybe, but here's a tweak with proper hotspots:
(http://i.imgur.com/RDnyp1C.gif)
Title: Re: 256-color views for SCI1.1 - a modest proposal of sorts
Post by: Cloudee1 on June 24, 2015, 02:52:46 PM
Uh oh. I just imported your gif... The transparency didn't follow through with the embedded palette import. Not that it matters right now, just thought I would give a heads up.
Title: Re: 256-color views for SCI1.1 - a modest proposal of sorts
Post by: Kawa on June 28, 2015, 05:25:30 AM
Here we are now, with what's hopefully the final version of this particular loop. And if it really is, I'll move on to the front and back views.
(http://i.imgur.com/aOikDhf.gif)

And here's a little demonstration of versatility that may or may not have something to do with my main SCI11 project, The Dating Pool:
(http://i.imgur.com/J0zrx4C.png)
Template ego included for comparison.
Title: Re: 256-color views for SCI1.1 - a modest proposal of sorts
Post by: Kawa on June 30, 2015, 02:55:17 AM
Turns out it was not the final version, as the dip went too deep. So here's what hopefully really really is the final version, and a first pass on front:
(http://i.imgur.com/cltGhzb.gif) (http://i.imgur.com/tBPn7ti.gif)
Title: Re: 256-color views for SCI1.1 - a modest proposal of sorts
Post by: Kawa on July 10, 2015, 12:49:35 PM
Meanwhile, at the halfway point...
(http://i.imgur.com/cltGhzb.gif)(http://i.imgur.com/tBPn7ti.gif)(http://i.imgur.com/8VboUXF.gif)
Title: Re: 256-color views for SCI1.1 - a modest proposal of sorts
Post by: MusicallyInspired on July 10, 2015, 02:27:29 PM
I'd suggest not moving his head side to side like that for north/south animations. A little head bob up and down should suffice. Just my humble opinion.
Title: Re: 256-color views for SCI1.1 - a modest proposal of sorts
Post by: Kawa on July 10, 2015, 02:32:04 PM
Yeah, I know. It's just that his head's width is divisible by two but the rest of his body isn't. So every time his legs switch...
Title: Re: 256-color views for SCI1.1 - a modest proposal of sorts
Post by: MusicallyInspired on July 10, 2015, 09:18:44 PM
Ahh. #90sgraphicsproblems
Title: Re: 256-color views for SCI1.1 - a modest proposal of sorts
Post by: Kawa on July 16, 2015, 08:58:41 AM
Can't reach imgur at this time, so I'll just use attachments.
Title: Re: 256-color views for SCI1.1 - a modest proposal of sorts
Post by: Kawa on July 19, 2015, 09:17:43 AM
Let it be known that diagonal walkcycles are hard.

Really hard.

Like holy shit guys.

Edit: but dammit I persevere!
Title: Re: 256-color views for SCI1.1 - a modest proposal of sorts
Post by: troflip on July 19, 2015, 01:01:30 PM
Thank you for persevering!

It's looking good... the only adjustment I think it needs is the background arm/hand doesn't swing forward enough.
Title: Re: 256-color views for SCI1.1 - a modest proposal of sorts
Post by: MusicallyInspired on July 19, 2015, 03:26:19 PM
Wonderful work!
Title: Re: 256-color views for SCI1.1 - a modest proposal of sorts
Post by: Kawa on August 05, 2015, 07:56:27 AM
Diagonals are the worst.
Title: Re: 256-color views for SCI1.1 - a modest proposal of sorts
Post by: troflip on August 05, 2015, 06:20:12 PM
Looks like front bit of his body has gone through a meat slicer. That's quite a straight edge!
Maybe a little background arm too?
Title: Re: 256-color views for SCI1.1 - a modest proposal of sorts
Post by: Kawa on August 05, 2015, 06:33:12 PM
Looks like front bit of his body has gone through a meat slicer. That's quite a straight edge!
Maybe a little background arm too?
Like I said, the worst. But then, how many revisions have the other directions gone through, hmm?
Title: Re: 256-color views for SCI1.1 - a modest proposal of sorts
Post by: troflip on August 05, 2015, 10:37:15 PM
All the more need for this view, then..
Title: Re: 256-color views for SCI1.1 - a modest proposal of sorts
Post by: MusicallyInspired on August 06, 2015, 12:54:35 AM
Yeah, needs a left arm there. Has referencing Sierra's diagonal views helped at all?
Title: Re: 256-color views for SCI1.1 - a modest proposal of sorts
Post by: Kawa on August 14, 2015, 06:07:23 PM
I'd like to mention that I've put a conversion of the DeluxePaint Comic font in the stash (check my sig) to appease the Viewlords while I'm still gathering my courage to improve that goddamn diagonal.

Yeah, needs a left arm there. Has referencing Sierra's diagonal views helped at all?
Not really I'm afraid.
Title: Re: 256-color views for SCI1.1 - a modest proposal of sorts
Post by: Kawa on August 20, 2015, 09:25:14 AM
Quick experiment in alternatives: using SQ1 Roger as a base, who seems to have the least swagger -- just a bit too much chest if you ask me.
Title: Re: 256-color views for SCI1.1 - a modest proposal of sorts
Post by: MusicallyInspired on August 20, 2015, 11:07:02 AM
That looks good!
Title: Re: 256-color views for SCI1.1 - a modest proposal of sorts
Post by: Kawa on August 20, 2015, 11:22:22 AM
That looks good!
Fairy wall, then. I'll do the diagonals next, just to get that bullshit behind me.
Title: Re: 256-color views for SCI1.1 - a modest proposal of sorts
Post by: Kawa on October 28, 2015, 09:52:21 AM
Pokaaan~

Sorry 'bout the delay, guv.


bonus: in Main.sc SetUpEgo, instead of
Code: [Select]
  (send gEgo:
    setLoop(-1)
    setLoop(stopGroop)
    setPri(-1)
    setMotion(NULL)
    state(| (send gEgo:state) $0002)
  )
do
Code: [Select]
  (send gEgo:
    setLoop(-1)
    setLoop(Grooper) //These two lines allow the "standing" loop.
    setCycle(Smopper -1)
    setPri(-1)
    setMotion(NULL)
    setScale() //Reset leftover scaling effects
    scaleX(120)
    scaleY(120)
    state(| (send gEgo:state) $0002)
  )
Title: Re: 256-color views for SCI1.1 - a modest proposal of sorts
Post by: troflip on October 28, 2015, 11:57:51 AM
Huzzah! Looks great! Into the template game it goes...

(only thing, the first loop, he looks a little... bouncing back and forth. he's got some mad swagger)

Would be nice to have a female character too... ;-)
Title: Re: 256-color views for SCI1.1 - a modest proposal of sorts
Post by: Kawa on October 28, 2015, 12:37:58 PM
At least it's a different kinda swagger than SQ5 Rog has.
Title: Re: 256-color views for SCI1.1 - a modest proposal of sorts
Post by: Collector on October 28, 2015, 04:36:18 PM
Would be nice to have a female character too... ;-)

This.