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SCI Programming => SCI Development Tools => Topic started by: gumby on February 22, 2014, 09:29:01 AM
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Found this very interesting over at Kickstarter:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/905018498/ototo-make-music-from-anything (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/905018498/ototo-make-music-from-anything)
From what I can tell, this seems like this would be a great way to create original MIDI music for our games, without having to be classically trained. I've seen similar devices before, but the variety of input sensors really grabbed me.
The project is already fully funded, and delivery is scheduled for this June. I'm thinking about funding it; at a minimum it would be fun to with my kids to tinker with.
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Amusing
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nah, just find someone to do the soundtrack
us soundtrack writers are hard up right now
there are thousands of us without work that'll do your game's soundtrack for free just for credit ;)
just gotta find us ;)
you should go for sciaudio though since the modern plugins us soundtrack writers use, typically use what are called keyswitch articulations... and if you tried to just export the midi from one of those songs, you'd be left with something that doesn't even sound the same. The technology has changed a lot since the days when we used to just write midi tracks and let the generic pc synthesizers do the work :P
still nothing beats having a real composer do it and it's easier to find us than you think ;)
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Nothing will ever beat a real composer. However, it's fun sometimes to compose within the limitations of 1988 technology.
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To make you feel like Ken Allen? ;)
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To make me feel like part of Sierra in some small insignificant non-real way.
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yea i hear ya
although 8 bit midi can sometimes be hard on the ears :P
especially if you have one of those computers that won't let you turn down the internal speaker. lol
i had to install a generic driver just to get around that myself
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If you are up to the challenge, do an MT-32 track.
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I don't know if I'd want to
I didn't spend over 10 grand on soundtrack plugins to go back to that. :P
I should go back to some of my old stuff that didn't use keyswitches though and bounce the midi so people can use it for stuff like this
only problem is that I gave up my license to use my old version of pro tools they are on to upgrade to the new version so i doubt i'd be able to. sad face :(
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oh yea the sci midi doesn't work on dosbox either does it?
another reason to go with sciaudio since most people have to use dosbox to play them these days unless they're still on xp or have a virtual machine set up
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MIDI works great in DOSBox as it just passes the MIDI signal to the host's MIDI hardware. The main limitation is from the SCI0 drivers, which predates GM. There is a fan made driver to add GM to SCI0. It should be included in the template game. You still have to convert the MIDI files to SCI SOUND resources to add to the game. Many have shied away from making proper SCI SOUND resources because of being intimidated by Soundbox.
sciAudio is a nice hack to use external audio files in your SCI0 game, but it does have some draw backs. It limits it to Windows and is harder to get precise control. It has a tendency to not exit when the game exits, so continues to play on after DOSBox has closed. I wrote a clumsy workaround that kills the sciAudio process when DOSBox closes. An imprecise and not exactly an elegant way to exit a program.
On a side note, you would have no sound with XP's NTVDM without an additional emulator. Besides NTVDM is not a very good DOS emulator.
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I didn't spend over 10 grand on soundtrack plugins to go back to that. :P
Hey don't knock the MT-32. It may be old but it is very unique. There are sounds on that thing and sounds that you can create that you won't get from any other synth. I still use it right alongside my modern plugins to compose with. If you really work in the music industry in some capacity you must appreciate the use of old and "outdated" equipment or software to get a certain sound. "Outdated" doesn't exist in this industry. Sure, a $50 microphone might be cheaply made and not as finely crafted as a $2500 U87 but it does capture a sound that that U87 can never get. Therefore it is invaluable.
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of course i do musicallyinspired
i didn't mean to knock it
I just personally wouldn't want to since I can do so much more in my genre with the new stuff and since I've invested so much into it.
yea I know sciaudio isn't perfect. I also heard using it too much can causes memory issues. I'd try to get around those by mostly putting effects and stuff on the same track as the music so long as they aren't the kind of effects that are triggered by some event. Also plan on just limiting how much music I put in a game just in case. As for it continuing to play after it closes... it only does that for a minute for me. It's not a huge issue. just disconcerting.
I'm sure sciaudio's issues go into overdrive when you start trying to do stuff like add voice acting, but so far it's been working fine with just music.
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I honestly don't understand the point in using modern audio formats with SCI, other than ease of use, obviously, which to be fair is probably the main reason. But if you're going to go that route, why not just use AGS? It just seems a strange combination to use modern music styles with such an old interpreter. Doesn't feel authentic to me. It's not what I would do.
Of course, the process of creating music for SCI is quite involved and that scares people off, so I have a proposition. If anybody wants music in their game (and has some MIDI files already) I will convert it to SCI for MT-32, Adlib, PC Speaker, Tandy 3-voice support if you like.
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nah I don't find it doesn't feel authentic at all
I find a modern soundtrack makes the game feel more professional and commercial level.
it feels fine as long as the music fits the game
I think that's always the main thing when it comes to doing soundtracks
maybe it's a to each their own kind of thing I guess
I wouldn't say modern software is easier to use either. There's a lot more to it and it's also a lot easier to botch the job or run into major problems along the way with the high memory requirements and massive sample libraries.
My sample library is almost 2 terrabytes! :p
Also, even with 16 gigs of ram I often have to do one track at a time in order to avoid running into memory problems with some of the bigger plugins.
It can be downright brutal at times.
Good thing I know how to do audio restoration because that at least cuts the time I work on a song in half when I can do noise removal and spectral repairs on bad samples.
Yea, all in all I find it gets more and more convoluted as the software goes more modern but at the same time a lot more that you can do which makes it worth while.
this is why i'm glad i upgraded to pro tools 11. I used to have to deal with all of these issues in live bounces where I had to do hundreds of bounces to get one track with no glitches in it.
Now it only takes 1 or 2 tries with offline bounces. probably the one time a software update with pro tools actually made things easier :P
You also gotta do mastering when making the wav/mp3 which you don't do with midi files so that adds another layer of difficulty. especially when you're doing soundtracks which require a high level of dynamic range but everyone stills wants the tracks at the highest possible volumes even though it's a terrible decision to do that to soundtrack or classical. (damn volume wars! :P)
so we gotta find an even medium with that.
yea, I'd definitely say modern is harder. it's counter-intuitive but i've done both and it was a lot less stressful back in the day. It was even less stressful when I was only using a 4 track cassette recorder :P
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When I said "ease of use" I meant utilizing (already created) modern audio formats like MP3/OGG/FLAC/etc for playback in SCI as opposed to converting standard MIDI files to SCI's sound format with support for the various MIDI devices. What I don't understand is using those modern audio formats with SCI when it already has native support in AGS with much more support for other modern features as well. To me, developing in SCI is a retro thing. Creating a game as if Sierra would have made it. I don't get combining it with modern amenities. If I wanted to do that I would just use AGS, which is catered to a modern approach. If you're used to SCI that's one thing, but AGS does have a much simpler interface and is much easier to code with (not so many LISP brackets, for one thing!) and there's a very large very active community that can help with issues you may run into or with things you don't know how to implement. The documentation is also far more extensive than SCI's for sure.
I'm not saying there's no point in using SCI Studio when AGS exists, just that I don't think that SCI needs to try to be like AGS. There's no way it can compete with it. But SCI offers a retro experience that AGS can't really quite provide. It doesn't have a vector background editor for one.
Slightly off-topic, but I'm also an avid believer in the fact that limitation breeds more creativity.
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i guess we have to agree to disagree then
but no, i'm using sci specifically because the text input allows me to go for a certain angle i'm going for.
I still think though that the juxtaposition of modern and retro can be done right.
I think maybe the key to getting the sound to work on it would be going for an older sound but with newer software. Like lots of classical, and maybe some throw back to the 90's like sound with enigmatic myst like stuff like waterphones, water drops and neat effects like that. Would all depend on the genre of game to. Like if it was a comedy it would be a completely different story.
Anyways, with the right combination of genres and sounds I'm sure it would work well.
when all is said and done though, it all comes down to what you're going for.
I think either approach is fine.
The decision on whether or not to use AGS or SCI could be for many reasons though. I don't think we should limit ourselves on what we should do on either or just because it's retro.
to some people, maybe the newer crowd of emerging adventure gamers just discovering this stuff, a solid modern soundtrack could be what makes a game stand out from the rest.
conversely, as you say, to some old school adventure gamers, they might prefer the old sound
but I think either way they mostly just probably care more about the gameplay than anything.
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Yeah, that's perfectly valid. I was just stating my personal view. As long as people are making SCI games that's a good thing. This community needs to grow. Doubtful it'll get much bigger, but it still has a following and any new interest is good.
I guess I'm a little apprehensive about adding modern sound support via external applications (which is, how I understand it, sciAudio functions). Now, if SCI was updated somehow and could get modern sound support (and even decent Windows support) natively, that would be something I wouldn't mind. I'd love to see SCI continue to grow in popularity like that. But nobody is available to work on something like that.
Also, there are things you can do with MIDI that you could never do with digital formats (without adding features to the interpreter like I mentioned) like loop points and cue tags to cue script functions in-game. Or vice versa, cuing the next loop in a sound resource (or a new sound resource) via a script cue. You can totally create a music system that functions exactly like LA's iMuse that way. That stuff fascinates me. There's still more you can do with MIDI than you can do with digital music. I recall Monkey Island 2 actually slowing down the tempo and pitching down the notes in one track (I don't think it was composed that way, but altered during run-time).
But there are other things that I wish modern games could do as well with sounds and music. Like using effects like reverb, delay, and EQ in-game. This would be great for areas like say outside of a club where the music sounds all muffled until you walk inside and it becomes clear. Right now all they do is just render two separate music files and crossfade between them. I really think music and sound can be more dynamic in games but it just isn't utilized or prioritized at all. Sorry, off-topic again...
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yea i hear ya just my personal opinion to
yea i've noticed that myself.. You can't really do cues with sciaudio.. just basic background tracks that change with the rooms really.
I think the main reason you don't see them doing the reverb and other stuff within the game anymore is because whatever signal processors they'd use would be obsolete on newer stuff now.
Like i know that some cheap reverbs will make certain sounds sort of crackle at lower volumes. a horrible effect, but if you use a super-expensive convolution reverb on the same song the lower volumes and fades will come out super smooth like silk.
that sort of thing probably just couldn't keep up with what producers are using in their DAW's.
Yea, i wish sciaudio was a bit better myself. I'm just glad the options there at all :P
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With regards to effects on digital sounds/music, it would be all software based and programmed into the game. No outside processing required. Unreal used to do this quite well. There used to be EAX for hardware accelerated sound effects specifically for this, but it's been abolished it seems. But with the capability of today's computer resources with gigabytes of memory and terabytes of storage space, I don't see why these things can't just be programmed into the backend of the game itself without requiring hardware acceleration. I don't see a reason why a game couldn't have the same effect capabilities like reverb, delay, eq, modulation, etc that are present in modern DAWs programmed right into a game's engine. Not the exact same plugins, obviously, but I don't see why something similar isn't possible. I mean, it already works in a DAW just fine.
I believe some games still use reverb, but not much else. Real-time EQ effects, even if they were a selection of presets within the backend, would do wonders for game atmosphere. They already kind of do this with games that support surround sound emulation. They just need to put more effort into it. Everything is bounced down to a sample now and I just think things can be more dynamic.
Anyway, I've ranted off-topic long enough lol. Just some personal dreams. Moving on.
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maybe it would be too expensive to acquire the licenses to use those within the game engine
who knows
yea I agree it would be nice to have real time eq effects. eq's aren't as bad for what I mentioned before. A simple 7 band parametric eq or something would be fine for making adjustments or even a basic multiband. especially since laptop and computer speakers aren't exactly ideal for music. If I were to make adjustments within a game I'd probably bring up the low end more (well bring down the high end actually) so than I would normally just because the subsonics aren't going to bleed through normally on laptop speakers.
lol it's all good
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Yeah, but that's my point. You can't copyright reverb. You can copyright a reverb plugin. They don't have to license one that's already created, they can create their own. Just nobody does.
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Oh yea
than i'd put my money on that it's just that the composers don't want low quality reverb plugins used on their modern stuff like I was saying.
I had to pay out the nose to get one that did a decent job on my stuff. Reverb plugins that don't botch the low end of the dynamic range are usually quite expensive. otherwise you get some shitty sounding fades that just sort of sputter out by the time you're done. That only applies to stuff with lots of silence though. most genres would never have the need to care about that. we're talking like the fade on a pizzicato string or a hanging soft piano note or something.
i see how you'd still like to have one for those just in case moments though. In those situations, I'd just contact the composer and ask them to increase the reverb if it's possible to contact them.
Not a huge job to do anyways. If someone asked me to do that I'd have no problem with it. that's probably all they're doing these days... or they just have a simple daw handy to do it themselves.
something like that anyways
I can see your point though that it would be easier if it was just there.
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Well, yeah I meant moreso for sound effects. I wouldn't ever suggest using an in-game plugin for music. That's composer territory and should be bounced. I'm talking about sounds for atmospheric effect. Like different sized areas with different reverb. But, for instance, if someone in a game was playing music from a boombox in a large empty warehouse, that music should be reverberating appropriately, rather than just sounding like you're wearing headphones. Right now something like that would just be bounced with excessive reverb. But it's much more dynamic when every sound in the room is subject to the reverb of the location's atmospheric settings, similar to how every model and prop in a game world are subject to the lighting of whatever area they're in. It would also cut down on file size when you only need one source sound file and the dynamic effects of each area in the game transform the source sound to its needs, rather than having half a dozen duplicate sounds with varying effects on all of them. That can quadruple the game size. Underwater sound is another good example. Actually, I think that IS done in real-time in a lot of games now that I think about it. Not as much as it could be, though. It's not so much that it would be easier, just more economic.
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oooohhh yea for sure you're right that's essential really. I'm surprised they won't let you do that. I guess to get around that you'd have to bug the producer or whatnot who's working on the game to do a whole bunch of different levels of reverb on your effects.. like if your effects are audio files and they can work with them. That's also something I'd do if someone asked. although i wouldn't enjoy it :P sounds like a real pain to do file by file instead of just having the option there in the game software.
oh yea and that would then increase the size of the game too much.
oh for and underwater sound... plate reverb...
perfect for that since plate reverb is literally like an oil tank filled with water that they play the sound in and re-record it... only we use a digital simulation of that now-a-days. still does the job though. doesn't sound nearly as good as the original plate reverbs though