Show Posts
1
The Games and other Sierra Adventure stuff / Re: Worst Adventure Game Tendencies
« on: December 09, 2019, 03:00:42 PM »
I might not have strictly kept to the topic, or maybe the subject title's a bit off. I definitely don't think PnC sucks, and would also agree that much of the "freedom" is illusory, though I'd also have to side on the parser vs dialog trees. Technically, you can convey the same information either way, but I've always felt like the parser version plays out more as a user-driven conversation. QFG1 and 2, which I've played through more times than I can count, can still occasionally give me a surprise when I ask a character about something I'd never thought to ask before. That's largely due to designers' attention, of course (just did a recent run through of Police Quest 1 after many years and was surprised by how many "ask about" questions had nothing whatsoever, no matter how relevant to what was actually going on). There was always just some extra bump in joy I felt when I found something new to ask on my own or some way to work with the parser as compared to PnC.
Speaking of the Yeti, though, one other thing... this was a long time ago, so my memory could be hazed out, but while I don't recall eating the pie prematurely or having a ton of trouble with the Yeti, I suspect it was due to the "click everything on everything" manner of playing that becomes easy when you feel stuck. Maybe that's a user-caused issue (don't do something unless you can think of a reason you're doing it), but I can guarantee the thought of throwing the pie in the Yeti's face Three Stooges style never crossed my mind. It really is pretty silly as a "puzzle." In that case, is it better to have the potentially more forgiving PnC over the parser? Would "use pie with yeti" have yielded the same, or something like "A good idea, but how?" I really don't know. Come up with a better puzzle and it would work either way? Perhaps.
Plus, on the other hand, "put bag in the bottle" or whatever the specific line from LSL2 was, shows how painful untested parsing can be, even when it's generally pretty good throughout a game.
You guys are right, though, the maximum enjoyment in either method comes from the developer caring enough to reward exploration with information, be it humorous or interesting, or just something to acknowledge that you can see what you can see. The rest is probably subjective.
Deaths and maybe dead-ends can have their place... The warning for the labyrinth is a nice touch, and when ignored, maybe it's all fair game. I feel like there've been game puzzles where the correct thing was to ignore the narrator, as well, so it's potentially confusing, but if you can get a feel for the game and its characters, it could be pretty amusing. I think Collector's got a good point: how long do they let you putter around as the walking dead? Leisure Suit Larry 2 felt like one that could let you follow the linear story for hours before nailing you with a missing item.
And QFG, Roger "Red Shirt" Wilco, there are some humorous deaths. I'm not a personal fan of random wolf attacks as you enter a screen or getting shot three seconds after someone else enters the screen, though both of those are fairly avoidable with some reflexes and care, and also save early, save often. I guess it depends on the death and the payout; it's good to have some gravity to your actions, and the inconvenience of restoring really... isn't, so much.
Great point about appearance and animation helping counter flaws. There's a limit to what they can help pad, but they do provide some grace when done well enough to really be immersive. Animation over text when possible can make a huge difference for sure, and it helps if those detailed screens let you interact with all those detailed details.
Fetch quests to excess... Oh yeah. As an avenue for narrative progression, it can definitely make sense, but "take ****," walk for a couple minutes, "give **** to ****," repeat, does not a puzzle make. Interesting things can be done with tricks and subterfuge on the characters or other variations to add some interest, but then there's a puzzle involved.
Out-of-Place puzzles... I'll have to pay attention during my play through to the slide block puzzle. Anachronistic puzzles, that sort of thing. Not quite moon logic, but not quite part of the presented world. An interesting thought, for sure.
Okay, more than enough words from me.
Speaking of the Yeti, though, one other thing... this was a long time ago, so my memory could be hazed out, but while I don't recall eating the pie prematurely or having a ton of trouble with the Yeti, I suspect it was due to the "click everything on everything" manner of playing that becomes easy when you feel stuck. Maybe that's a user-caused issue (don't do something unless you can think of a reason you're doing it), but I can guarantee the thought of throwing the pie in the Yeti's face Three Stooges style never crossed my mind. It really is pretty silly as a "puzzle." In that case, is it better to have the potentially more forgiving PnC over the parser? Would "use pie with yeti" have yielded the same, or something like "A good idea, but how?" I really don't know. Come up with a better puzzle and it would work either way? Perhaps.
Plus, on the other hand, "put bag in the bottle" or whatever the specific line from LSL2 was, shows how painful untested parsing can be, even when it's generally pretty good throughout a game.
You guys are right, though, the maximum enjoyment in either method comes from the developer caring enough to reward exploration with information, be it humorous or interesting, or just something to acknowledge that you can see what you can see. The rest is probably subjective.
Deaths and maybe dead-ends can have their place... The warning for the labyrinth is a nice touch, and when ignored, maybe it's all fair game. I feel like there've been game puzzles where the correct thing was to ignore the narrator, as well, so it's potentially confusing, but if you can get a feel for the game and its characters, it could be pretty amusing. I think Collector's got a good point: how long do they let you putter around as the walking dead? Leisure Suit Larry 2 felt like one that could let you follow the linear story for hours before nailing you with a missing item.
And QFG, Roger "Red Shirt" Wilco, there are some humorous deaths. I'm not a personal fan of random wolf attacks as you enter a screen or getting shot three seconds after someone else enters the screen, though both of those are fairly avoidable with some reflexes and care, and also save early, save often. I guess it depends on the death and the payout; it's good to have some gravity to your actions, and the inconvenience of restoring really... isn't, so much.
Great point about appearance and animation helping counter flaws. There's a limit to what they can help pad, but they do provide some grace when done well enough to really be immersive. Animation over text when possible can make a huge difference for sure, and it helps if those detailed screens let you interact with all those detailed details.
Fetch quests to excess... Oh yeah. As an avenue for narrative progression, it can definitely make sense, but "take ****," walk for a couple minutes, "give **** to ****," repeat, does not a puzzle make. Interesting things can be done with tricks and subterfuge on the characters or other variations to add some interest, but then there's a puzzle involved.
Out-of-Place puzzles... I'll have to pay attention during my play through to the slide block puzzle. Anachronistic puzzles, that sort of thing. Not quite moon logic, but not quite part of the presented world. An interesting thought, for sure.
Okay, more than enough words from me.
It'll be a while yet, but progress is good.