Ototo - Creating MIDI music

[MusicallyInspired]

When I said "ease of use" I meant utilizing (already created) modern audio formats like MP3/OGG/FLAC/etc for playback in SCI as opposed to converting standard MIDI files to SCI's sound format with support for the various MIDI devices. What I don't understand is using those modern audio formats with SCI when it already has native support in AGS with much more support for other modern features as well. To me, developing in SCI is a retro thing. Creating a game as if Sierra would have made it. I don't get combining it with modern amenities. If I wanted to do that I would just use AGS, which is catered to a modern approach. If you're used to SCI that's one thing, but AGS does have a much simpler interface and is much easier to code with (not so many LISP brackets, for one thing!) and there's a very large very active community that can help with issues you may run into or with things you don't know how to implement. The documentation is also far more extensive than SCI's for sure.

I'm not saying there's no point in using SCI Studio when AGS exists, just that I don't think that SCI needs to try to be like AGS. There's no way it can compete with it. But SCI offers a retro experience that AGS can't really quite provide. It doesn't have a vector background editor for one.

Slightly off-topic, but I'm also an avid believer in the fact that limitation breeds more creativity.

[stateofpsychosis]

i guess we have to agree to disagree then

but no, i'm using sci specifically because the text input allows me to go for a certain angle i'm going for.

I still think though that the juxtaposition of modern and retro can be done right.
I think maybe the key to getting the sound to work on it would be going for an older sound but with newer software. Like lots of classical, and maybe some throw back to the 90's like sound with enigmatic myst like stuff like waterphones, water drops and neat effects like that. Would all depend on the genre of game to. Like if it was a comedy it would be a completely different story.
Anyways, with the right combination of genres and sounds I'm sure it would work well.

when all is said and done though, it all comes down to what you're going for.

I think either approach is fine.
The decision on whether or not to use AGS or SCI could be for many reasons though. I don't think we should limit ourselves on what we should do on either or just because it's retro.  
to some people, maybe the newer crowd of emerging adventure gamers just discovering this stuff, a solid modern soundtrack could be what makes a game stand out from the rest.
conversely, as you say, to some old school adventure gamers, they might prefer the old sound
but I think either way they mostly just probably care more about the gameplay than anything.

[MusicallyInspired]

Yeah, that's perfectly valid. I was just stating my personal view. As long as people are making SCI games that's a good thing. This community needs to grow. Doubtful it'll get much bigger, but it still has a following and any new interest is good.

I guess I'm a little apprehensive about adding modern sound support via external applications (which is, how I understand it, sciAudio functions). Now, if SCI was updated somehow and could get modern sound support (and even decent Windows support) natively, that would be something I wouldn't mind. I'd love to see SCI continue to grow in popularity like that. But nobody is available to work on something like that.

Also, there are things you can do with MIDI that you could never do with digital formats (without adding features to the interpreter like I mentioned) like loop points and cue tags to cue script functions in-game. Or vice versa, cuing the next loop in a sound resource (or a new sound resource) via a script cue. You can totally create a music system that functions exactly like LA's iMuse that way. That stuff fascinates me. There's still more you can do with MIDI than you can do with digital music. I recall Monkey Island 2 actually slowing down the tempo and pitching down the notes in one track (I don't think it was composed that way, but altered during run-time).

But there are other things that I wish modern games could do as well with sounds and music. Like using effects like reverb, delay, and EQ in-game. This would be great for areas like say outside of a club where the music sounds all muffled until you walk inside and it becomes clear. Right now all they do is just render two separate music files and crossfade between them. I really think music and sound can be more dynamic in games but it just isn't utilized or prioritized at all. Sorry, off-topic again...

[stateofpsychosis]

yea i hear ya just my personal opinion to

yea i've noticed that myself.. You can't really do cues with sciaudio.. just basic background tracks that change with the rooms really.


I think the main reason you don't see them doing the reverb and other stuff within the game anymore is because whatever signal processors they'd use would be obsolete on newer stuff now.

Like i know that some cheap reverbs will make certain sounds sort of crackle at lower volumes. a horrible effect, but if you use a super-expensive convolution reverb on the same song the lower volumes and fades will come out super smooth like silk.
that sort of thing probably just couldn't keep up with what producers are using in their DAW's.

Yea, i wish sciaudio was a bit better myself. I'm just glad the options there at all

[MusicallyInspired]

With regards to effects on digital sounds/music, it would be all software based and programmed into the game. No outside processing required. Unreal used to do this quite well. There used to be EAX for hardware accelerated sound effects specifically for this, but it's been abolished it seems. But with the capability of today's computer resources with gigabytes of memory and terabytes of storage space, I don't see why these things can't just be programmed into the backend of the game itself without requiring hardware acceleration. I don't see a reason why a game couldn't have the same effect capabilities like reverb, delay, eq, modulation, etc that are present in modern DAWs programmed right into a game's engine. Not the exact same plugins, obviously, but I don't see why something similar isn't possible. I mean, it already works in a DAW just fine.

I believe some games still use reverb, but not much else. Real-time EQ effects, even if they were a selection of presets within the backend, would do wonders for game atmosphere. They already kind of do this with games that support surround sound emulation. They just need to put more effort into it. Everything is bounced down to a sample now and I just think things can be more dynamic.

Anyway, I've ranted off-topic long enough lol. Just some personal dreams. Moving on.

[stateofpsychosis]

maybe it would be too expensive to acquire the licenses to use those within the game engine
who knows

yea I agree it would be nice to have real time eq effects. eq's aren't as bad for what I mentioned before. A simple 7 band parametric eq or something would be fine for making adjustments or even a basic multiband. especially since laptop and computer speakers aren't exactly ideal for music. If I were to make adjustments within a game I'd probably bring up the low end more (well bring down the high end actually) so than I would normally just because the subsonics aren't going to bleed through normally on laptop speakers.

lol it's all good

[MusicallyInspired]

Yeah, but that's my point. You can't copyright reverb. You can copyright a reverb plugin. They don't have to license one that's already created, they can create their own. Just nobody does.

[stateofpsychosis]

Oh yea

than i'd put my money on that it's just that the composers don't want low quality reverb plugins used on their modern stuff like I was saying.

I had to pay out the nose to get one that did a decent job on my stuff. Reverb plugins that don't botch the low end of the dynamic range are usually quite expensive. otherwise you get some shitty sounding fades that just sort of sputter out by the time you're done. That only applies to stuff with lots of silence though. most genres would never have the need to care about that. we're talking like the fade on a pizzicato string or a hanging soft piano note or something.

i see how you'd still like to have one for those just in case moments though. In those situations, I'd just contact the composer and ask them to increase the reverb if it's possible to contact them.
Not a huge job to do anyways. If someone asked me to do that I'd have no problem with it. that's probably all they're doing these days... or they just have a simple daw handy to do it themselves.

something like that anyways
I can see your point though that it would be easier if it was just there.

[MusicallyInspired]

Well, yeah I meant moreso for sound effects. I wouldn't ever suggest using an in-game plugin for music. That's composer territory and should be bounced. I'm talking about sounds for atmospheric effect. Like different sized areas with different reverb. But, for instance, if someone in a game was playing music from a boombox in a large empty warehouse, that music should be reverberating appropriately, rather than just sounding like you're wearing headphones. Right now something like that would just be bounced with excessive reverb. But it's much more dynamic when every sound in the room is subject to the reverb of the location's atmospheric settings, similar to how every model and prop in a game world are subject to the lighting of whatever area they're in. It would also cut down on file size when you only need one source sound file and the dynamic effects of each area in the game transform the source sound to its needs, rather than having half a dozen duplicate sounds with varying effects on all of them. That can quadruple the game size. Underwater sound is another good example. Actually, I think that IS done in real-time in a lot of games now that I think about it. Not as much as it could be, though. It's not so much that it would be easier, just more economic.

[stateofpsychosis]

oooohhh yea for sure you're right that's essential really. I'm surprised they won't let you do that. I guess to get around that you'd have to bug the producer or whatnot who's working on the game to do a whole bunch of different levels of reverb on your effects.. like if your effects are audio files and they can work with them. That's also something I'd do if someone asked. although i wouldn't enjoy it sounds like a real pain to do file by file instead of just having the option there in the game software.

oh yea and that would then increase the size of the game too much.

oh for and underwater sound... plate reverb...
perfect for that since plate reverb is literally like an oil tank filled with water that they play the sound in and re-record it... only we use a digital simulation of that now-a-days. still does the job though. doesn't sound nearly as good as the original plate reverbs though