Author Topic: SCI mysteries  (Read 45408 times)

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Offline troflip

Re: SCI mysteries
« Reply #30 on: May 07, 2015, 01:25:27 AM »
I actually used to work with someone who had worked on SQ3 and KQ4 (and probably other titles). I recently bought an old copy of the KQ book, and there was even pictures of him in it. Unfortunately he left the company I worked at, oh, probably 8 years ago (I've also since left), and I don't have any contact info for him (and I can't find him on the internet - no fb or linkedin page or anything).
Check out my website: http://icefallgames.com
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Offline Collector

Re: SCI mysteries
« Reply #31 on: May 07, 2015, 02:16:48 AM »
I don't know if they are under some kind of NDA and if it still applies after all of this time, but I would that after all of this time no one would care any longer. A couple that I have talked to that didn't seem so reluctant had been away from it for so long that memory failed enough that they were not able to reveal anything worth while. The person that would be fantastic to get information from would be Jeff Stephenson. I think that Lance managed to tracked him down once, but did not make contact. Not that it would be likely, but having the full original source for FPFP would have been fantastic, even if it was not the final code.
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Offline lance.ewing

Re: SCI mysteries
« Reply #32 on: May 07, 2015, 12:41:00 PM »
Yeah, that's a hard one, isn't It? People will obviously feel reluctant to discuss what were trade secrets at the time. As you say, it seems like it has been long enough. Maybe even they don't know when it will have been long enough. If there are NDAs involved, they may choose to play it safe. The games themselves are still not free, although they are much cheaper than they were. The recent interest in the rights for some of these games with sequels in mind shows that the IP might still be worth something?

I think there is a danger in discussing this on a public forum like this. It might work against us. If someone were to share information with us, they'd be fearful that we'd discuss it here and possibly mention names. That might be holding them back.

Offline Collector

Re: SCI mysteries
« Reply #33 on: May 07, 2015, 01:16:47 PM »
That is why I did not name who had the source. One of the main things that concerns me is from the view point of a preservationist. The bulk of the source for the games was pitched into a dumpster after Chainsaw Monday and I want what still survive to be saved in some way that won't disappear with the person that has it.

From the point of what we are trying to do, I have heard that often the interpreter was modified specifically for a given game and that the source for the modified interpreter was stored with the game's source. That would be interesting to see, too.
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Offline lance.ewing

Re: SCI mysteries
« Reply #34 on: May 07, 2015, 04:36:17 PM »
That's interesting about the modified interpreter source. Yeah, I agree with you about the preservation goal. It would be a shame for what exists to disappear.

Who these days "owns" the original source (for games, tools, and interpreter)? You mention that a lot of it disappeared in dumpsters after Chainsaw Monday, so from the perspective of the owners of the games thereafter, the source was probably gone at that point, and obviously no-one worked on it since. So for those bits that ex-employees have held on to, who legally owns that now? And who could make a decision for us regarding "open sourcing" it? Is there anyone who can make that call now? It might be one of the only ways for ex-employees to show what they have, i.e. if something official comes out regarding its legal status. I guess it is unlikely to go the way we'd hope for. But what would the owners take into account when considering this? It's the games themselves that they'd make money from, and the characters and story lines that they'd look to make money from in the future. What would they lose by revealing the source of these (fairly old these days) games? There are already hundreds of walkthroughs all over the net, so no harm in people finding out how to finish the game or anything like that. A reasonable legal department might be open to allowing it to be openly available.

Is there a difference between the owners of the original source of the games/tools/interpreter, and the games themselves? What I'm wondering is whether the current owners of these games (is it still Activision for most of them?) still legally own that source code that presumably they don't actually possess (due to it being thrown out)?

Assuming that nothing official is said, what are our options?

Offline lance.ewing

Re: SCI mysteries
« Reply #35 on: May 07, 2015, 04:53:43 PM »
I actually used to work with someone who had worked on SQ3 and KQ4 (and probably other titles). I recently bought an old copy of the KQ book, and there was even pictures of him in it. Unfortunately he left the company I worked at, oh, probably 8 years ago (I've also since left), and I don't have any contact info for him (and I can't find him on the internet - no fb or linkedin page or anything).

Lucky him. It was my dream the whole way through my teenage years to one day work for Sierra. I researched all the surrounding area around Coarsegold and Oakhurst and even found the addresses and phone numbers of many of the employees in the phone book listings for that area. Absolutely crazy.  I honestly can't remember where I got them from now, but we're talking before the Internet was publicly available, and I was growing up in New Zealand. The only thing I can think of is that there were US phone books on microfiche at the local library and maybe I was looking through those. I kept thinking "How I am going to end up working there when I'm over here in New Zealand?", and so my teenage self was trying to build up as much contact information as I could.

Anyway, game development moved on from the one-man does everything game that attracted me (think AGI and early SCI), and the Sierra we knew disappeared.  :(  The dream was gone, until the AGI/SCI fan made game scene took off.   :)

Offline MusicallyInspired

Re: SCI mysteries
« Reply #36 on: May 07, 2015, 05:00:55 PM »
Interesting. So for instance, CodeMasters owns LSL while ActiVision owns basically everything else. What about the source to LSL5? Or the interpreter? Who owns the interpreter? Who owns SCI? Why does CodeMasters own the source to one game while ActiVision owns the source to another? The games are separate from their sources. Take the Quake engine. It's released open source, but the game assets and resources aren't.
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Offline lance.ewing

Re: SCI mysteries
« Reply #37 on: May 07, 2015, 05:17:55 PM »
What's purpose of your investigation? Are you trying to determine what the original syntax might have been for these procedures?

Yeah, that's the main purpose. I guess it doesn't really help us much to know that, but it's nice to know what it might have looked like.

Given the pattern you're seeing in the codeblocks, it's a reasonable assumption that these procedures were defined in a class in the original source code (as opposed to the "procedure blah of fooclass" that Brian used). Basically, they'd be like "private" methods, I guess.

Yeah, I agree. It seems likely that those methods and the procedure would have been defined in the same order in the original source as they appear in the code block. And I guess they were a kind of private method. For the purposes of decompilation, we could probably say that if a procedure appears after a method within a code block then it belongs to the same class as the method. - Unfortunately I don't think we can distinguish between a procedure that is defined at the top of a class and one that appears outside the class but immediately above it. That is unless it references something that links it to the class.

Your version of LSL5 must be a little different than mine. In mine, the procedures are at $1ae and $7c4 (close, but off by a bit). Decompiling script 995 in LSL5, only the $1ae procedure was identified as being "of" the Inv class. $7c4 wasn't because the only class-specific opcode used was "self", which can compile without knowing which class it belongs to (I think I had to do that because there were some procedures in the SCI0 template game that were like that).

The version I have I got off GOG. The game tells me it is version 1.000, date 09/11/91.

Offline lance.ewing

Re: SCI mysteries
« Reply #38 on: May 07, 2015, 06:47:18 PM »
Interesting. So for instance, CodeMasters owns LSL while ActiVision owns basically everything else. What about the source to LSL5? Or the interpreter? Who owns the interpreter? Who owns SCI? Why does CodeMasters own the source to one game while ActiVision owns the source to another? The games are separate from their sources. Take the Quake engine. It's released open source, but the game assets and resources aren't.

If you Google info about the game rights a bit, there are a lot of interesting stories coming up.

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/leisure-suit-larry-loungin-with-codemasters/1100-6205151/
http://www.spacequest.net/index.php/topic/743-is-there-any-hope-of-the-sierra-brand-being-revived-or-sold/
http://www.telltalegames.com/community/discussion/45230/telltale-s-king-s-quest-license-pulled-by-activision/p6
http://www.telltalegames.com/community/discussion/32367/who-owns-king-s-quest
http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2014/08/18/activision-blizzard-resurrects-sierra-games-and-re.aspx
https://blog.activision.com/community/games-blog/more-games/blog/2015/03/05/kings-quest-preview-gdc-sierra-the-odd-gentlemen
http://www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2015/01/02/ken-williams-interview-kings-quest-sierra-game-informer.aspx

The new King's Quest game is apparently coming out later this year. Sounds like it could be quite interesting.

http://www.sierra.com/kingsquest

I guess this is the problem. Activision has started doing something quite big with the rights. But they're building the new games with the latest tools and for the latest platforms. I doubt they're actually interested in code from the early 90s. Who knows though.

As for CodeMasters, they apparently gave Replay Games a license for Larry (I thought Replay actually had the rights but sounds like its not quite the case) that allowed them to create the recent remake of LSL1. Sounds like there were plans to do others but the whole thing has apparently gone a bit pear shaped from what I've been reading this evening. That's a shame. At one point they were talking about a Larry 4 and Larry 8 but I guess these may not eventuate now.

https://steamcommunity.com/app/231910/discussions/0/613938693292790857/

Not sure if I included it in the links above, but there were suggestions that Gold Rush and Manhunter might be owned by other companies. Obviously not SCI related but still of interest.

Offline MusicallyInspired

Re: SCI mysteries
« Reply #39 on: May 07, 2015, 10:32:08 PM »
Yeeeeaaaah that was a mess.
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Offline Collector

Re: SCI mysteries
« Reply #40 on: May 07, 2015, 11:59:02 PM »
 would imagine that Activision has the rights to SCI, but the Codemasters owning LSL and at one time The Realm does throw a wrinkle in that. Most probably do not care as it is too dated of technology and if they even looked into it probably found that Havas threw it out. they have to realize that some of the ex-employees had to have some of the material, but it would not be worth pursuing.

Other things that I would love to see are the in house tools they used and the documentation. I came across something where a person was going to start working at Sierra and was given a manual on SCI to study before he began and was describing the similarity to Smalltalk. I think that this might have been from a link that Lance posted a couple of years ago.


Here's an idea for the new Sierra, offer up SCI for free for new game development, much like some of the other game engines have been. It could help generate a new interest in Sierra.
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Offline MusicallyInspired

Re: SCI mysteries
« Reply #41 on: May 08, 2015, 12:13:59 AM »
Yes, I've long wondered what the official Sierra developer tools looked like...they were obviously in DOS. That would be wonderful on my old 486...
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Offline Collector

Re: SCI mysteries
« Reply #42 on: May 08, 2015, 12:17:08 AM »
SCI 32 tools may have been Win32.
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Offline MusicallyInspired

Re: SCI mysteries
« Reply #43 on: May 08, 2015, 12:26:46 AM »
Not really interested in SCI32 (besides the prospect of decompiling/recompiling and loading/saving assets in existing games). At that point I'd just use AGS.
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Offline Collector

Re: SCI mysteries
« Reply #44 on: May 08, 2015, 12:42:59 AM »
I would still like to see them.
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