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General and Everything Else => The Games and other Sierra Adventure stuff => Topic started by: Threepwang on May 30, 2026, 06:56:31 AM
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My title says 'rare', but I could have used 'untraceable' or 'nonexistent'. I don't know.
Please, I would like to know if the following games exist on standard PC DOS or only on PC BOOSTER and PCJr?
They are:
-King's Quest 1, Game version 1.0U, Interpreter version 2.272.
-King's Quest 2, Game version 1.0W and 1.1H.
-The Black Cauldron, Game version 1.1J, 1.1K, and 1.1M.
I sent a MP to @lance.ewing, but he hasn't been around for a while; I hope he's doing well. I'm just a simple translator and I don't have your knowledge; I hope you can provide the answer.
P.S.: I'm testing the existing versions: https://github.com/Thpwg/AGI-SCI-index (https://github.com/Thpwg/AGI-SCI-index) If you see any mistakes on my part, please feel free to point them out, and I will make the corrections.
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Interpreter version 2.272 can?t be a booter. The booter used GAL (which I *think* was called AGI0 also?).
As for TBC, we have the source code for it! - so we know that it builds on regular AGI, at least.
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Interpreter version 2.272 can?t be a booter. The booter used GAL (which I *think* was called AGI0 also?).
Hello lskovlun,
That?s interesting, I didn?t know there were stages between PRE-AGI and AGI, it seems to be GAL/AGI0.
As for TBC, we have the source code for it! - so we know that it builds on regular AGI, at least.
That's good news for my translation projects. Has the source code of The Black Cauldron been publicly released? If so, do you have a link?
Thank you very much for taking the time to respond to me :)
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The TBC source code has been archived here:
https://github.com/historicalsource/the-black-cauldron
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The TBC source code has been archived here:
https://github.com/historicalsource/the-black-cauldron
The game proposed by Historical Source seems to be the atypical version mentioned by @AGKorson here: https://sciprogramming.com/community/index.php?topic=2113.msg16036#msg16036 (https://sciprogramming.com/community/index.php?topic=2113.msg16036#msg16036)
It does not appear to be versions 1.1J, 1.1K, or 1.1M: https://i.ibb.co/LzrfXPyX/readme.png (https://i.ibb.co/LzrfXPyX/readme.png)
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My title says 'rare', but I could have used 'untraceable' or 'nonexistent'. I don't know.
Please, I would like to know if the following games exist on standard PC DOS or only on PC BOOSTER and PCJr?
They are:
-King's Quest 1, Game version 1.0U, Interpreter version 2.272.
-King's Quest 2, Game version 1.0W and 1.1H.
-The Black Cauldron, Game version 1.1J, 1.1K, and 1.1M.
I sent a MP to @lance.ewing, but he hasn't been around for a while; I hope he's doing well. I'm just a simple translator and I don't have your knowledge; I hope you can provide the answer.
@Threepwang, yes, I'm doing well. I'm always working on some kind of retro project. At the start of this year, I released a web version of my VIC 20 emulator called JVIC and have been hanging out in the VIC 20 community for a bit. You can see the online emulator here: https://vic20.games/, and a game that I recently used AI to port from Javascript to the VIC 20 here: https://vic20.games/#/vvvvic. I have also been collaborating with another guy called sodiumlightbaby on a VIC chip replace device called the PIVIC.
Regarding your questions, as far as we know, those versions of those games only existed in those bootable versions that you mentioned. Those versions were not released for PC DOS. Non-existent would be a fairly solid assumption then.
Regarding your most recent post, yes, I think that BC source is some rare possibly never properly released version. The AGI logics, pictures, views and sounds would be very similar to the versions you mentioned. - The original release of BC, being AGI1 I believe (not GAL/AGI0) would have been a little different, because it had fewer AGI commands, and the AGI commands had different opcode values. There is a branch in the JAGI project that was experimenting with loading AGI1 scripts from games like the Apple II versions of KQ2 and BC, so it is possible to view the code, but we don't have the original code.
Btw, since we often call GAL "AGI0", then Pre-AGI is a bit of a misnomer, because the games that are often referred to as the Pre-AGI games were released after the one and only GAL/AGI0 game (KQ1).
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Hello @lance.ewing
Thank you for your very detailed response. I am also glad to have had your insights regarding the so-called Pre-AGI games; it's very interesting.
Regarding KQ1, 2, and BC, I took the liberty of citing you in my index.
I would like to get your reaction regarding KQ1, as in 2023, a person named einstein95 replied to me on GitHub. Their response suggested that the 1984 edition existed on regular MS-DOS PC, which encouraged me a lot. Could you read that person's comments and give me your point of view?
Here is the link: https://github.com/scummvm/scummvm/pull/4702 (https://github.com/scummvm/scummvm/pull/4702)
PS: Your VIC emulator is very nice! I'll take a closer look at that...
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The versions of KQ1 that came out in 1984 are currently known only to be booter versions. AGI version 2.272 did not come out in 1984, so what you've added to your github page (https://github.com/Thpwg/AGI-SCI-index) would be incorrect then, i.e. "King's Quest 1 EGA (Game version 1.0U, Interpreter version 2.272) 1984" did not exist, by which I mean an AGI 2.272 version didn't exist in 1984.
Looking at the github PR discussion (and associated commit) that you linked to, I think there is some misunderstanding on the part of the person that answered your question. They may not have understood what you were asking. The commit includes this:
// King's Quest 1 (DOS) 1.0U [AGI 2.272]
GAME("kq1", "1.0U 1986",
which I assume did exist. This is for a 1986 release of the game though, not 1984. - Almost all AGI v2 games were DOS, not booter. The exception is the very first version of the Donald Duck's Playground game, which was a kind of hybrid.
In response to your question on the github PR, I suspect einsten95 thinks you are asking about the 1986 version, and he is in fact confirming that that version exists and is DOS. I don't think he was confirming a 1984 DOS version exists.
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Another issue with DDPG is that there is supposedly an Amiga version that was imperfectly hacked to run on DOS (1.0C), so it runs on DOS, but has issues. (crashes on pressing "Escape"). Perhaps it was actually a PC Booter). This is the version that Al Lowe has on his website.
My Sierra Sierra Version tool basses its hash detection list on the ScummVM AGI and SCI hash tables. I have added a lot of new entries on top of that. I have a reporting form for users to help add unknown versions to the app.
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Another issue with DDPG is that there is supposedly an Amiga version that was imperfectly hacked to run on DOS (1.0C), so it runs on DOS, but has issues. (crashes on pressing "Escape"). Perhaps it was actually a PC Booter). This is the version that Al Lowe has on his website.
My Sierra Sierra Version tool basses its hash detection list on the ScummVM AGI and SCI hash tables. I have added a lot of new entries on top of that. I have a reporting form for users to help add unknown versions to the app.
Hello Collector,
For Donald Duck's Playground, @h.w.m. wrote:
Version 1.0C [note: version from www.allowe.com]
Interpreter: 2.272 (same interpreter + cracked exe as 1.0C)
Probably AMIGA version, directory contains POINTER
When pressed ESC: bad action 161, does work with newer interpreters
Date: 27 Sep 2000 (date when dumped from ADF?) (Ingame: none)
Mentions mouse in help-screen.
I take advantage of your presence to follow up on KQ1. Your site states King's Quest 1 AGI2 Game version 1.0U, Interpreter version 2.272, date 1984: https://agiwiki.sierrahelp.com/index.php/King%27s_Quest:_Quest_for_the_Crown (https://agiwiki.sierrahelp.com/index.php/King%27s_Quest:_Quest_for_the_Crown)
Is this a bootable version or something else? It may be a transcription error, as it seems to correspond to the 1986 edition. I wanted to ask you before responding to Lance :)
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Regarding AGI V2 versions, if you plot the AGI V2 version number against the timestamp of the AGI interpreter files (AGI and AGIDATA.OVL), you get a rough idea of when each AGI V2 version was released. For example, all the AGI v2.272 games are grouped around 13th November 1986. AGI V2.089 is 22nd September 1986, AGI V2.230 is 6th October 1986, and I have AGI v2.001 noted as 9th June 1986. I think then that AGI V2 development started early 1986, with the first version ready for release being early June 1986.
Version 2.411 & 2.425 are dated April 1987, version 2.426 is 7th May 1987, version 2.435 is 25th May 1987, version 2.440 is 1st June 1987.
During 1985, when games like BC and KQ2 first came out, it was AGI V1 that was being used.
This is why we're saying that AGI 2.272 can't have been around in 1984.
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Regarding AGI V2 versions, if you plot the AGI V2 version number against the timestamp of the AGI interpreter files (AGI and AGIDATA.OVL), you get a rough idea of when each AGI V2 version was released. For example, all the AGI v2.272 games are grouped around 13th November 1986. AGI V2.089 is 22nd September 1986. I have AGI v2.001 noted as 9th June 1986. I think then that AGI V2 development started early 1986, with the first version ready for release being early June 1986.
Version 2.411 & 2.425 are dated April 1987, version 2.426 is 7th May 1987, version 2.435 is 25th May 1987, version 2.440 is 1st June 1987.
During 1985, when games like BC and KQ2 first came out, it was AGI V1 that was being used.
This is why we're saying that AGI 2.272 can't have been around in 1984.
I bow to the evidence of your arguments. I have made corrections in my index. The 1986 edition is indeed the oldest known version on standard PC DOS.
I must say that I am such a purist with KQ1 that I would have liked to have a port on PC like the one on Apple II, so that I could translate it into French.
I have also added you to my acknowledgments at the top of the index page.
I still have 70 AGI and SCI games marked as 'Missing'; I hope to be able to test them one day. Lance, if you see any major errors in the index, please feel free to let me know.
Thank you very much!(https://www.smiley-lol.com/smiley/celebre/historique/dartagnan.gif)
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Hello Collector,
For Donald Duck's Playground, @h.w.m. wrote:
Version 1.0C [note: version from www.allowe.com]
Interpreter: 2.272 (same interpreter + cracked exe as 1.0C)
Probably AMIGA version, directory contains POINTER
When pressed ESC: bad action 161, does work with newer interpreters
Date: 27 Sep 2000 (date when dumped from ADF?) (Ingame: none)
Mentions mouse in help-screen.
I take advantage of your presence to follow up on KQ1. Your site states King's Quest 1 AGI2 Game version 1.0U, Interpreter version 2.272, date 1984: https://agiwiki.sierrahelp.com/index.php/King%27s_Quest:_Quest_for_the_Crown (https://agiwiki.sierrahelp.com/index.php/King%27s_Quest:_Quest_for_the_Crown)
Is this a bootable version or something else? It may be a transcription error, as it seems to correspond to the 1986 edition. I wanted to ask you before responding to Lance :)
The KQ DOS 1.0U listed is based on a boxed copy that I have, so no, it is not hacked. The hash that my version tool uses is based this copy of mine, and no, it is not a booter. It has the CPC copy protection, so you will have to work around that. I just use AGILE.
BTW, the AGI Wiki is no longer being updated. You should be using the new Sierra Wiki (https://wiki.sierrahelp.com/index.php/Main_Page), which combines the AGI and SCI Wikis and is in the process of replacing the main SierraHelp site. Registrations have been turned off because of spammers, but anyone that wants an account just has to request one and I'll add it.
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BTW, the AGI Wiki is no longer being updated.
I think this is why Threepwang is feeling a bit confused. The AGI wiki lists 1.0U 2.272 as from 1984 (https://agiwiki.sierrahelp.com/index.php/King%27s_Quest:_Quest_for_the_Crown), which seems to be a mistake. KQ1 1.0U 2.272 as Lance mentioned is from Nov 1986 and logically a DOS game, right?
It's listed as 84 on the Sierra wiki as well (https://wiki.sierrahelp.com/index.php/Sierra_AGI_Release_List#AGI2)
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We should probably remove the references to 1983 on that page as well, as that is definitely wrong. My AGI wiki login is still working, so if I have some time over the weekend, I'll try to update that page with some of the details we worked out in the various past discussions on the original KQ release date. I think I might have promised to do this years ago but never got around to it. I can remove that 1984 while I'm at it.
Edit: I've just removed the 1984 against that game version, and also updated the original release date of KQ (the PCJR release) to match the now known 10th May 1984 date. I'll add a few more details of interest to the page later on this weekend.
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BTW, the AGI Wiki is no longer being updated. You should be using the new Sierra Wiki (https://wiki.sierrahelp.com/index.php/Main_Page), which combines the AGI and SCI Wikis and is in the process of replacing the main SierraHelp site. Registrations have been turned off because of spammers, but anyone that wants an account just has to request one and I'll add it.
Do I have a login for the new wiki yet? I still have a working one for the old, so I made some updates to the old page. Some of that info I would like to add to the new. If I don't have a login yet, can you set me up?
I put some details under the "About" section of the old KQ wiki page in relation to the events happening at the time of the KQ release.
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Everything is clear to me; I'm glad that the light has been shed on these game versions. Thank you, Lance, I've learned a lot thanks to you.
You were also right about the KQ1 game by einstein95; it was a misunderstanding. Indeed, the detection table of ScummVM indicates that the version of his game dates back to 1986: https://i.ibb.co/8nsFC8ZR/KQ1.png (https://i.ibb.co/8nsFC8ZR/KQ1.png) You will tell me that it could not be otherwise, and that is the case.
Maybe it is also necessary to correct on Agi Wiki and Sierra Wiki that KQ2 1.0W and 1.1H are not PC DOS games, but only bootable versions. The same applies to versions 1.1J, 1.1K, and 1.1M of The Black Cauldron.
And a huge thank you to them :)
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I need to find a way to set the old wikis as read only. Any changes made to them will be lost when I delete the old ones. I am keeping them until I am sure that everything has been transferred, which I think is nearly complete.
I'll add an account for the new wiki for you. Shall I use your Gmail account for your email?
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I'll add an account for the new wiki for you. Shall I use your Gmail account for your email?
Yes please, same as the old wiki. Thanks.
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Your account has been created. You should get an email with your randomly generated password.
Initial release date had already been updated on the new Wiki, based on NRS's find of the release's copyright page.
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Your account has been created. You should get an email with your randomly generated password.
The email hasn't come through. I've PMed you. We can continue discussion offline on this.
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Here is the total list of recognized versions of The Black Cauldron in ScummVM:
// Black Cauldron (PC 5.25" booter) 1.1J [AGI 1.12]
BOOTER_UNSTABLE("bc", "1.1J 5.25\" Booter", "0f69951170868481acebf831dd743b21", 0x1120, GID_BC),
// Black Cauldron (PC 5.25" booter) 1.1K [AGI 1.12]
// This also matches against Tandy version 01.00.00. The game resources are identical
// except for the copyright/version text on the title screen and three pics.
BOOTER_UNSTABLE("bc", "1.1K 3.5\" Booter", "297a586027a5eba60219b339ebe53443", 0x1120, GID_BC),
// Black Cauldron (PC 5.25" booter) 1.1M [AGI 1.12]
BOOTER_UNSTABLE("bc", "1.1M 3.5\" Booter", "29bc82f2acfd0c7deeb7941cafd745d2", 0x1120, GID_BC),
// Black Cauldron (Amiga) 2.00 6/14/87
GAME_PO("bc", "2.00 1987-06-14", "7b01694af21213b4727bb94476f64eb5", 0x2440, GID_BC, Common::kPlatformAmiga, GAMEOPTIONS_AMIGA),
// Black Cauldron (Apple II) 1.1H [AGI 1.20]
A2("bc", "1.1H", "80c7d0af6c89bf28ae44d2aa5ca83dc1", 0x1120, GID_BC),
// Black Cauldron (Apple IIgs) 1.0O 2/24/89 (CE)
GAME3_PO("bc", "1.0O 1989-02-24 (CE)", "bcdir", "dc09d30b147242692f4f85b9811962db", 0x3149, 0, GID_BC, Common::kPlatformApple2GS, GAMEOPTIONS_APPLE2GS),
// Black Cauldron (PC) 2.00 6/14/87 [AGI 2.439]
GAME("bc", "2.00 1987-06-14", "7f598d4712319b09d7bd5b3be10a2e4a", 0x2440, GID_BC),
// Black Cauldron (Russian)
GAME_LPS("bc", "", "b7de782dfdf8ea7dde8064f09804bcf5", 357, Common::RU_RUS, 0x2440, GID_BC, Common::kPlatformDOS),
// Black Cauldron (PC 5.25") 2.10 11/10/88 [AGI 3.002.098]
GAME3("bc", "2.10 1988-11-10 5.25\"", "bcdir", "0c5a9acbcc7e51127c34818e75806df6", 0x3149, GID_BC),
// Black Cauldron (PC 3.5") 2.10 11/10/88 [AGI 3.002.098]
// BC.QA says "Interpreter: 3.002.097", while AGIDATA.OVL is "3.002.098"
GAME3("bc", "2.10 1988-11-10 3.5\"", "bcdir", "0de3953c9225009dc91e5b0d1692967b", 0x3149, GID_BC),
// Black Cauldron (CoCo3 360k) [AGI 2.023]
// Unofficial port by Guillaume Major
GAME_PS("bc", "", "51212c54808ade96176f201ae0ac7a6f", 357, 0x2440, GID_BC, Common::kPlatformCoCo3),
// Black Cauldron (CoCo3 360k) [AGI 2.072]
// Unofficial port by Guillaume Major
GAME_PS("bc", "updated", "c4e1937f74e8100cd0152b904434d8b4", 357, 0x2440, GID_BC, Common::kPlatformCoCo3),
There is both an AGI2 and an AGI3 version. So someone had to have these versions of the game.
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There is both an AGI2 and an AGI3 version. So someone had to have these versions of the game.
Black Cauldron has the distinction of having AGI1, AGI2 and AGI3 versions.
The versions of BC that where mentioned in the original post are the three AGI1 booter versions known to exist, but as 1.1J suggests earlier versions, my guess is that those earlier versions were internal versions and never actually released to the public. The fact that there exists the 1.1J version in the wild would suggest that that version was released to the public.
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I don't know if I can ask, but I'm missing a version of Black Cauldron to test. If any member has the Game version 2.10, Interpreter version 3.002.089, I would be interested :)
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Are you sure about the interpreter version? Version 2.10 with int3.002.098 exists Could this have been something like a typo where the last two digits got inverted?
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Are you sure about the interpreter version? Version 2.10 with int3.002.098 exists Could this have been something like a typo where the last two digits got inverted?
I don't really know, actually, this interpreter is listed on wiki.sierrahelp: https://wiki.sierrahelp.com/index.php/Black_Cauldron (https://wiki.sierrahelp.com/index.php/Black_Cauldron) as AGI 3. That's why I thought you had the game in your archives. We need to find out more?