using existing graphics as guides?

[robingravel]

Hi.

Yeah, I wouldn't want to use their stuff unless they have officially gave their approval at some point, even if the chances of them complaining were low.

While browsing around the AGI websites I discovered this page which should be of some help for me: http://www.classicgaming.com/agisci/agigarc.shtml

I'm assuming most of you know about it, but for those that are new like me, it's collection of AGI graphics that are pretty much fair game for game creators.



see ya

DG: the agimouse adventure game is a domain public not a freeware. If you wish you may put anything from DG to
your game.

Robin Gravel

[ACiDiC74]

That's cool, that's how my game will be once it's completed. Hopefully that's how the majority of the fan game creators feel. It might encourage more people to take a shot at creating games if they don't have to do everything themselves while learning.

[Blacki]

Note that most people look similar, but different.  Using a character as a guide should be fine, but make them look different.

Seeing cloned characters and backgrounds and the like is not alright, although cameo appearances by well known sierra characters should be alright eg.
You haven't such n'such seen since so n'so quest!
Looks like you just stumbled onto the set of so n'so quest!

Sierra used to do it in their games as a form of advertisement, eg. SQ1 ad in KQ2, KQ1 castle in SQ1, KQ4 in Hero Quest 1, etc.  As long as the cloned character only makes a brief appearance.  

Just a few points...

- Don't try to pass off someone else work as you own.
- The sierra games we're talking about are abandonware?
- Abandonware means... copyright has been abandoned?
correct me if I'm wrong.

Still doesn't mean you can run out and copy their characters, backgrounds, sounds, etc.

P.S. The more different it looks, the better.  If we wanted to see pq1 or sq2 we'd probably be playing it.

[Nick Sonneveld]

Abandonware is where games are so old people ASSUME that the company doesn't care when you distribute them.. it doesn't mean the copyright has expired though.. the company can still kick your ass.

if the copyright has expired or the company released the game  into the public domain then it's definately ok to put those graphics into your games.. but that's only if there's no copyright to get in your way.

- Nick

[Joel]

Of course, the big issue with copyright is not actually protecting the author's work from somebody claiming it as their own (that's just the noble-sounding reason we give)...it's actually money.

The copyright issue as I understand it is this: Basically, it's only worthwhile for Sierra to pursue copyright infringement cases if they perceive that they are losing money because of the infringement. That isn't particularly likely for a few graphics stolen from their nearly 20-year-old games. Now, if somebody did a remake of one of their games that they still sell (for example, Leisure Suit Larry) or started distributing those games as freeware, then it would be in their interest to pursue the case. Otherwise, it would probably cost more than it would benefit them to press charges.

Where exactly it might benefit them in terms of stolen graphics is fuzzy. If you borrow Sonny Bonds from Police Quest 1 and use him as ego in your game, Sierra might be able to prosecute by saying that you're making another Police Quest. However, if you borrow a door, they might have a harder time doing anything about it.

The big issue is registered trademarks. Sierra HAS to contest registered trademark infringement, or they lose the trademark. I'm not sure what things are registered trademarks, but it might not be a good idea to make a game with Space Quest in the title.

However, it is, in general, better to use your own graphics whenever possible. It might speed development to steal graphics, but you might be putting yourself at risk.

There are modified Sierra graphics in the demo of Jen's Quest. The guards in front of the gate are roger wilco from SQ1 painted black (and with new animation added), and the car is a recolored car from Police Quest. I'll probably eliminate those in my next demo and replace them with stuff I created.

[ACiDiC74]

That's all true about the copyrights and trademarks and stuff, but I am not too concerned with the legalities, I think showing respect to the wishes of the creator is the real issue here.

I mean, I'm sure the creators of fan games don't hold trademarks, and at best they most likely only have a default copyright on their art. It still doesn't mean that it's fair game to use their work against their will.

[Joel]

Believe me, I understand what you're talking about, if we were actually talking about the real authors' wishes.

As for the issue with Sierra, the Sierra that exists now is not the Sierra that created any of the AGI games. It is under new ownership and I'm not sure any of the people who worked on the AGI games are still employed there (in any case, they aren't the ones saying whether it's ok to use AGI graphics or not). I'm not saying that makes it ok to use Sierra's copyrighted graphics, although I wouldn't say it's "wrong" to do so. What I am saying is that Mark Crowe coming to us and saying "Please don't use backgrounds from Space Quest in any of your fan-made games" seems a lot closer to being the author's wishes than Sierra coming to us and saying the same thing. In fact, it would be disrespecting the true author's wishes to use Space Quest graphics if Sierra ok'd it but Mark Crowe asked that it not be done.

But that's not the issue with copyright. Sierra pretty much owns the copyright to the backgrounds in Space Quest, even if no one currently employed there actually drew them.

As a side note, I'm pretty sure ALL copyrights are by default. But whether your work is actually copyrighted by law in the case of making an AGI game is up for debate.

[bokkers]

Apart from the question if using existing graphics (either from Sierra or from fanmade games) are legal (its definitely not), a thing came to my mind:
I think the fact that we are still playing around with AGI is also some kind of showing respect to the creators of AGI and AGI-games. That means that all of us are people that appreciate other peoples work also from an ideal point of view. Every fangame, even if the graphics or the language or whatever are terrible, is being welcomed by everyone of us, because it was made by someone sharing our interest. All of us put a lot of time and energy into our games although we know that we wont sell any copies and besides only one or two dozen people will play the games.
To sum it up: We are different from people playing nothing but Quake, watching Disney-Films and reading Harry Potter because AGI really MEANS something to us. (no offense intended if you like Quake/Disney/Harry Potter, except for Harry I also like these commercial things) In most cases its the memory of joyful hours with these old games that keeps us sticking to the old games. But 99% of all the gamers out there are not like that, they want the fastest, newest graphics, the loudest soundtrack ever, and if there is something new and better, they will switch to the "next big thing".
And now for my point: As we all are people with that kind of attitude, it should be (and I think it IS) normal for us not to use anything without giving credit. In our project V (as in every fanproject I assume) we use views for the characters that are based on Sierra's player-character-view. We will give a credit to Sierra for that.
I think as Ken Williams includes links to fanmade agi-games on his homepage, he will be aware of what we do and how we work. So I dont expect any legal problems.
The only important thing is: If someone uses anything from our game V, he should give us a credit. That's how our community should work. I'd like to know if you all agree with me on that or if anyone thinks graphics from his game should not be used by the last 30 AGI-fans on planet Earth.
bok

[Chris Cromer]

I totally agree with you except I prefer them asking permission from me in advance then they can use my work as long as they give credit somewhere.

[ACiDiC74]

Yep Bokkers, that's it exactly    Glad to see that the other people around here (the vocal ones anyway) are like-minded, makes it just that much more satisfying to be playing around with this system.