Will SCI Studio be released?

[Disturbed Soul]

Well, you know, no one ever argued that SCI doesn't have better graphics than AGI. It does. That much, I believe, is pretty obvious.

Nor did I deny that SCI0 games have nostalgia value to some people (obviously, they do.) I personally really like SQ3 too - but I still think you will find that more people see AGI as the "bygone era" of gaming, with SCI0 lumped somewhere between AGI and SCI0's more colorful cousins.

I don't think anyone here has denied that SCI Studio is quite a piece of work, or that it was time consuming.  But it was said, "Maybe if you guys spend more time writing SCI games...", and I was just saying, I don't think people have a lot of motivation to. As for those of you who do, more power to you. I'd love to see some more of those great games.

I think you have to consider that writing SCI0 games is really hard if you want to do it right - not necessarily the programming, but the art. Of course, it is all a matter of personal preference. If you want to get all of those dithered colors to look right, you have to take extra care and time (I'm speaking relatively.)  Compare that to having a 256-color palette, and there's no contest. It's just much easier. Of course, so is AGI - if for no other reason than because the graphics system is more limited and therefore requires a lesser level of detail. People 'expect' less of AGI, because it can't really do much more. Personally, this is why I stick to AGI - you can make a fun game that looks good for the platform without spending your entire life on the project. I mean, most of us working on games don't have our entire lives to spend writing games, either.

Finally, there's no reason for the moderators or senior members to react in an arrogant and unkind way to things that people say. We've all been 'new' at some time or another. There's no excuse for it.  So what if they didn't read threads that are now several months old? If you're gonna be mean you might as well not respond at all - some one else will, and probably without the attitude.

I mean, why is it so hard to just be nice to people?

[Chris Cromer]

If we don't tell these new people to start reading and searching before posting, they will just keep doing it. I wasn't trying to say it in a harsh way, or in a way that made it sound like I was flaming them for not doing it. Just that they need to do it for now on before posting. Ignoring it will only cause it to happen more often.

There isn't really an nice way to say "you need to read/search before you post" no matter how you phrase that it's going to sound like it could be a little bit harsh.

The whole problem is from the people who don't like the answer that was given to them, even though it's the only and best answer we can give them at this time.

I know you didn't say it doesn't have a nostalgia value, but you did say that it has less than AGI which is just plain silly considering that the SCI0 games where of better quality than the AGI games which is what I was referring to.

[Disturbed Soul]

I guess what I'm trying to say is I don't see what graphics/sound quality has to do with nostalgia value. It always seemed to me to be something more associated with something from, say, your childhood or some other memorable time period / experience.

I dunno, I think there are nice ways to say it, for example: "Hey, here's your answer... for the future, it will be easier for you (and the rest of us) to do a search in the forums before posting. " or something to that effect. Also, one can search and miss it for some reason or another - happens to everyone from time to time, I think.

I'm not trying to pick a fight here or anything - I think in most cases you're a very good moderator. It just seems like some people get caught up in there "elite" status and have a tendency to go overboard when addressing what they see as "newbies" (who may, in fact, have been reading the board for months or years without posting, as in my case.)

Nobody wants to be treated like that.  Everyone deserves a little respect, I think (ok, maybe not everyone - but certainly people just asking honest questions.) And, in this case, someone was just asking about whether or not it would be released - which, as more time passes, I think is a perfectly valid question.  Even if there were old answers to this question, I can't see how they could answer the question now - several months down the road.  If you look, you'll notice that the last time anyone asked about the current status on SCI Studio VGA, is was back on April 2nd; that was about 1.5 months ago (unless someone was posting about it in an unrelated thread which I didn't catch.)

[Paladinlover]

People, I've said this before and I'll say it again. Just wait and give Brian the time he needs. I seriously doubt he's scrapped the project and I'm sure he'll be done before the summer is out.

[Kon-Tiki]

It just seems like some people get caught up in there "elite" status and have a tendency to go overboard when addressing what they see as "newbies" (who may, in fact, have been reading the board for months or years without posting, as in my case.)

Reading that reminded me of the #ocremix channel at IRC. Asking them for feedback on a remix you made'll get you flamed, called a fag, told your remix stinks even before they even got the link, etc. Even got the name Pr0n-Dick there, just because I haven't made a dozen remixes that've been accepted at OCremix. Compared to that, this place's welcoming newbies with open arms. Never even saw anything like going overboard towards newbies here.

[Nychold]

"Are we there yet?"
"No."

Repeat these lines a thousand times, and you have a traditional family vacation.  The first few times you hear it, you don't think much of it; the kids are curious and don't really understand the concept of time and distance.  However, the more often you hear it, the more your blood boils and the shorter your fuse gets.  Asking "When will SCI Studio be released" is the exact same question.  The first few times people ask that question, it's understandable.  The webpage isn't updated regularly, no comments are made by the creator, and no one is talking about the newest version.  But it's already been established that SCI Studio's production has been seriously slowed, by Brian's own admission.  Even looking at the webpage should tell be enough to convince someone.  The latest update was a few months ago, and has to do with GBAGI, which (if you've used it) is a massive undertaking and unrelated to SCI, so obviously SCI Studio production slowed down.

And, Disturbed Soul, some people do lurk on forums, yes.  I have a tendancy to go a few months without making one post, and still be reading.  However, I doubt that is truly your case because just about every month, someone comes to this forum to ask "are we there yet?"  You would have seen it, and seen the reply.

[Disturbed Soul]

Well, Nychold,

In fact, I've been reading this forum briefly for over a year and frequently for almost year; I know people ask a lot of questions. But hey, it's been a long time, after all. Can you really blame them?  The older threads asking if the program is finished (or when) have long since disappeared under the large number of new posts.  Now, I don't have any proof to offer you that I've been around for a while; since I've only been reading and not posting, there's nothing concrete I can point out. Basically, I've just seen a lot of people abused because others get a high-and-mighty attitude. Maybe it wasn't their intention, but it still drives people away. I've also seen a couple of threads suddenly disappear, which also bothers me (seems an awful lot like outright censorship of unpopular ideas to me.) I'm sure the people in charge mean the best, but basically I'm upset with seeing people mistreated.  I don't really want to "beat a dead horse", so to speak, and I feel I've made my point. You can try to discredit me if you really wish to. Regardless of whether or not you believe I've been reading for a while, I hope you consider my ideas nonetheless.  I'm not writing for any personal gratification; I only hope that people can treat eachother in a more amicable, respectable manner. I ask that you show the "newbies" the same respect with which you wish to be treated, and that is all. Golden rule, anyone? I mean, really, don't you want to be treated with respect?

I suppose it's a problem with internet forums in general, but I just wish there was a little more of a human touch to forums, sorta like in the old BBS days. Maybe it's an impossible dream, but hey... I gotta try, right? I'm really not trying to pick a fight. I think we basically understand eachother at this point; I just think it needed to be said.

Yours truly,
Disturbed Soul

[Chris Cromer]

Well I personally don't really delete posts.

Usually the only time something is deleted is when it get's out of hand such as flaming, or for instance recently this one guy who posting this song over and over again which had nothing to do with  the topic really other than repeating what we had already said.

Also note that sometimes they arn't deleted but rather moved to a more appropriate area if they are off-topic so that could also be it.

[Kon-Tiki]

As far as I've seen in the AGI-forum, newbies are treated with more respect than regulars, because all the regulars know each other and know how to interprete something, so one regular'll be able to toy around more with another regular. That's not the case with newbies. They don't know us and we don't know them, so there could be interpretation mistakes on either side. As I see it, newbies are given more respect and are treated more like that in order not to annoy or frustrate them or to feel insulted, which they could if they'd be treated the same as the regulars treat each other.

I don't know if this counts for the OS-dev and the SCI boards, because I'm not there as much, but at least that's how I see it. As for the general programming... I'm a newbie there myself and I don't feel that the others're being rude, insulting or in any other way mistreating me. Some have different ideas or assume things, but that's their attitude to regulars there too, and besides, that're only a few, far too few to represent the whole part.

All by all, I'm curious for examples of threads where there's newbie-bashing going on. It's hard to find up to non-existing, in my eyes.

[Cloudee1]

I wouldn't consider it bashing but I have been very short with some newbie questions, mainly regarding those that are asking where they can get sprites or views, often telling them to draw them.

Also when something pointless drags on and on it makes  me mad, I often times will add a reply stating my blunt opinion but, it usually takes me a while to get miffed.

[Disturbed Soul]

No doubt, newbies here are treated better than in many places on the net; I mean, there are places where you'll get flamed for posting anything.  And the truth is, it's all relative to your point of view. It isn't outright flaming in my view; it's more of an attitude of condescension. I don't really know how productive it is to argue the point, so I'm satisfied having said my piece.

Regarding examples, I can give them, but like any example of something so abstract they can be debated for quite a while. Nonetheless, I'll give them, and you're free to disagree.

As for the censoring of threads, I was mistaken - it was not an entire thread that disappeared, but a few messages from a specific thread. My apologies for my mistake. (http://www.mega-tokyo.com/forum/index.php?board=5;action=display;threadid=4816)

Now, maybe some of the deleted messages could have been considered "flaming", but they seemed to me more like strong disagreement with some other censorship being condoned (the outright removal of a game from the fan game site because, basically, Brian was unhappy about it. There was nothing illegal about the game itself.)

And the treatment of newbies...

Obviously, this thread is the one that set me off.

Also:
http://www.mega-tokyo.com/forum/index.php?board=5;action=display;threadid=4745

These are the ones that come immediately to mind. The second might be considered more of a good-natured ribbing, I suppose.  I'm sure there are other examples I could come up with, but the truth is searching the forums for old messages is a time consuming process. I guess you can take it or leave it at that. It's possible I've just gotten the wrong idea - I mean, maybe all of these people are regulars who I'm misunderstanding to be new. It's possible, I don't really know.  If that's the case, let me know.

-Disturbed Soul

[Cloudee1]

Ope, you just miffed me.  

Any person should have full ownership of their name. Brian, myself, or you should be able to ask that your name be removed from something that you don't endorse.

Rather than beat this dead horse any longer I will give you an example to illustrate:

"This herpes cream really works.  I, --> insert anyones name <-- wouldn't lie about such a thing, I know from personal experience and guarantee it to clear up your worst outbreaks."

Any real name you add, unless they have a really good herpe cream to sell, would say and expectedly so "hey man, take my name off of that s**t." Brian is no exception.

In general:
Sometimes tempers may flare and that one line shot may get fired, sometimes more. But it seems to me to be only towards the redundant questions, on every page I think you will find a thread something like "when will Sci be done".  If people are going to be so inconsiderate as to waste everyone's time...   ... I'll just stop that there because newbies aren't going to start searching old pages instead they are going to ask the question, to which the ONLY answer is "when it is."

 In the end I find that this is a good community to be a part of.

I'm happy to hear your opinions but I think you are wrong.

[Kon-Tiki]

The first example's completely understandable. That cameo Brian had in that game was slander, wether it's meant to be so or not. People could put you as a character in some hot sheppard-with-sheep-and-bull action in some game and you wouldn't like it either (unless you're like me and won't be able to continue playing the game from laughing... but that's beside the point)

As for the second thread... Pikachu14 is Kyoufu Kawa. He's been around this board even longer than me. We've made the full design of Leisure Suit Larry 4 together and finished it about a year ago. He's been waiting for SCI Studio VGA to be released ever since... and actually from before the plans were done. I don't know 'bout CiaCioZ though... But I know that Kawa/Pika'd be working on LSL4 if he knows he could already do something for it, like coding, drawing backgrounds or views or something like that.

Maybe it's a good idea to make a sticky topic which gives the link to the tools that're already done and what can already be made for VGA games in progress... It would keep game production on a steady line and'd keep those waiting for the Studio busy until it's finished, cutting down on the amount of times it's asked when it'll be done.

[Kawa]

As for the second thread... Pikachu14 is Kyoufu Kawa. He's been around this board even longer than me. We've made the full design of Leisure Suit Larry 4 together and finished it about a year ago. He's been waiting for SCI Studio VGA to be released ever since... and actually from before the plans were done. I don't know 'bout CiaCioZ though... But I know that Kawa/Pika'd be working on LSL4 if he knows he could already do something for it, like coding, drawing backgrounds or views or something like that.

Thank you -very- much for clearing that up Tiki. When GBAGI was released, it kinda toned down my anxiety (sp?) about SCI Studio's release date (which was IIRC long overdue but I'm intelligent enough to realise what "hobby projects" mean. I myself am unemployed but have -too much- hobby projects) because Brian was apparently -also- working on -that- project. Well now, that explains a lot.

This decompiler news article toned it down even more. Congrats, even though I hardly understand the Decomp's output.

I still don't understand where my account went. I remember some guy mildly flaming me in a PM because I said I was a god but I doubt he's responsible. But it doesn't matter. What matters is that I can still post and know that SCI Studio -will- be released. There are no midgets in my closet.

[FYI]

Errr, people: I think that remark regarding the first thread is about the messages that were 'removed' there... So not about censoring the game... Some guy revived the thread with some poetry, IIRC, wreaking havoc in SCI-world... A bit childish, but mildly entertaining...