Rare AGI Games on standard PC DOS

[Threepwang]

My title says 'rare', but I could have used 'untraceable' or 'nonexistent'. I don't know.

Please, I would like to know if the following games exist on standard PC DOS or only on PC BOOSTER and PCJr?

They are:
-King's Quest 1, Game version 1.0U, Interpreter version 2.272.
-King's Quest 2, Game version 1.0W and 1.1H.
-The Black Cauldron, Game version 1.1J, 1.1K, and 1.1M.

I sent a MP to @lance.ewing, but he hasn't been around for a while; I hope he's doing well. I'm just a simple translator and I don't have your knowledge; I hope you can provide the answer.

P.S.: I'm testing the existing versions: https://github.com/Thpwg/AGI-SCI-index If you see any mistakes on my part, please feel free to point them out, and I will make the corrections.

[lskovlun]

Interpreter version 2.272 can?t be a booter. The booter used GAL (which I *think* was called AGI0 also?).
As for TBC, we have the source code for it! - so we know that it builds on regular AGI, at least.

[Threepwang]

Interpreter version 2.272 can?t be a booter. The booter used GAL (which I *think* was called AGI0 also?).

Hello lskovlun,

That?s interesting, I didn?t know there were stages between PRE-AGI and AGI, it seems to be GAL/AGI0.

As for TBC, we have the source code for it! - so we know that it builds on regular AGI, at least.

That's good news for my translation projects. Has the source code of The Black Cauldron been publicly released? If so, do you have a link?

Thank you very much for taking the time to respond to me

[lskovlun]

The TBC source code has been archived here:

https://github.com/historicalsource/the-black-cauldron

[Threepwang]

The TBC source code has been archived here:

https://github.com/historicalsource/the-black-cauldron

The game proposed by Historical Source seems to be the atypical version mentioned by @AGKorson here: https://sciprogramming.com/community/index.php?topic=2113.msg16036#msg16036

It does not appear to be versions 1.1J, 1.1K, or 1.1M: https://i.ibb.co/LzrfXPyX/readme.png

[lance.ewing]

My title says 'rare', but I could have used 'untraceable' or 'nonexistent'. I don't know.

Please, I would like to know if the following games exist on standard PC DOS or only on PC BOOSTER and PCJr?

They are:
-King's Quest 1, Game version 1.0U, Interpreter version 2.272.
-King's Quest 2, Game version 1.0W and 1.1H.
-The Black Cauldron, Game version 1.1J, 1.1K, and 1.1M.

I sent a MP to @lance.ewing, but he hasn't been around for a while; I hope he's doing well. I'm just a simple translator and I don't have your knowledge; I hope you can provide the answer.

@Threepwang, yes, I'm doing well. I'm always working on some kind of retro project. At the start of this year, I released a web version of my VIC 20 emulator called JVIC and have been hanging out in the VIC 20 community for a bit. You can see the online emulator here: https://vic20.games/, and a game that I recently used AI to port from Javascript to the VIC 20 here: https://vic20.games/#/vvvvic. I have also been collaborating with another guy called sodiumlightbaby on a VIC chip replace device called the PIVIC.

Regarding your questions, as far as we know, those versions of those games only existed in those bootable versions that you mentioned. Those versions were not released for PC DOS. Non-existent would be a fairly solid assumption then.

Regarding your most recent post, yes, I think that BC source is some rare possibly never properly released version. The AGI logics, pictures, views and sounds would be very similar to the versions you mentioned. - The original release of BC, being AGI1 I believe (not GAL/AGI0) would have been a little different, because it had fewer AGI commands, and the AGI commands had different opcode values. There is a branch in the JAGI project that was experimenting with loading AGI1 scripts from games like the Apple II versions of KQ2 and BC, so it is possible to view the code, but we don't have the original code.

Btw, since we often call GAL "AGI0", then Pre-AGI is a bit of a misnomer, because the games that are often referred to as the Pre-AGI games were released after the one and only GAL/AGI0 game (KQ1).

[Threepwang]

Hello @lance.ewing

Thank you for your very detailed response. I am also glad to have had your insights regarding the so-called Pre-AGI games; it's very interesting.

Regarding KQ1, 2, and BC, I took the liberty of citing you in my index.

I would like to get your reaction regarding KQ1, as in 2023, a person named einstein95 replied to me on GitHub. Their response suggested that the 1984 edition existed on regular MS-DOS PC, which encouraged me a lot. Could you read that person's comments and give me your point of view?

Here is the link: https://github.com/scummvm/scummvm/pull/4702

PS: Your VIC emulator is very nice! I'll take a closer look at that...

[lance.ewing]

The versions of KQ1 that came out in 1984 are currently known only to be booter versions. AGI version 2.272 did not come out in 1984, so what you've added to your github page (https://github.com/Thpwg/AGI-SCI-index) would be incorrect then, i.e. "King's Quest 1 EGA (Game version 1.0U, Interpreter version 2.272) 1984" did not exist, by which I mean an AGI 2.272 version didn't exist in 1984.

Looking at the github PR discussion (and associated commit) that you linked to, I think there is some misunderstanding on the part of the person that answered your question. They may not have understood what you were asking. The commit includes this:

   // King's Quest 1 (DOS) 1.0U [AGI 2.272]
   GAME("kq1", "1.0U 1986",

which I assume did exist. This is for a 1986 release of the game though, not 1984. - Almost all AGI v2 games were DOS, not booter. The exception is the very first version of the Donald Duck's Playground game, which was a kind of hybrid.

In response to your question on the github PR, I suspect einsten95 thinks you are asking about the 1986 version, and he is in fact confirming that that version exists and is DOS. I don't think he was confirming a 1984 DOS version exists.

[Collector]

Another issue with DDPG is that there is supposedly an Amiga version that was imperfectly hacked to run on DOS (1.0C), so it runs on DOS, but has issues. (crashes on pressing "Escape"). Perhaps it was actually a PC Booter). This is the version that Al Lowe has on his website.

My Sierra Sierra Version tool basses its hash detection list on the ScummVM AGI and SCI hash tables. I have added a lot of new entries on top of that. I have a reporting form for users to help add unknown versions to the app.

[Threepwang]

Another issue with DDPG is that there is supposedly an Amiga version that was imperfectly hacked to run on DOS (1.0C), so it runs on DOS, but has issues. (crashes on pressing "Escape"). Perhaps it was actually a PC Booter). This is the version that Al Lowe has on his website.

My Sierra Sierra Version tool basses its hash detection list on the ScummVM AGI and SCI hash tables. I have added a lot of new entries on top of that. I have a reporting form for users to help add unknown versions to the app.

Hello Collector,

For Donald Duck's Playground, @h.w.m. wrote:
Version 1.0C [note: version from www.allowe.com]
Interpreter: 2.272 (same interpreter + cracked exe as 1.0C)
Probably AMIGA version, directory contains POINTER
When pressed ESC: bad action 161, does work with newer interpreters
Date: 27 Sep 2000 (date when dumped from ADF?) (Ingame: none)
Mentions mouse in help-screen.

I take advantage of your presence to follow up on KQ1. Your site states King's Quest 1 AGI2 Game version 1.0U, Interpreter version 2.272, date 1984: https://agiwiki.sierrahelp.com/index.php/King%27s_Quest:_Quest_for_the_Crown
Is this a bootable version or something else? It may be a transcription error, as it seems to correspond to the 1986 edition.  I wanted to ask you before responding to Lance 

[lance.ewing]

Regarding AGI V2 versions, if you plot the AGI V2 version number against the timestamp of the AGI interpreter files (AGI and AGIDATA.OVL), you get a rough idea of when each AGI V2 version was released. For example, all the AGI v2.272 games are grouped around 13th November 1986. AGI V2.089 is 22nd September 1986. I have AGI v2.001 noted as 9th June 1986. I think then that AGI V2 development started early 1986, with the first version ready for release being early June 1986.

Version 2.411 & 2.425 are dated April 1987, version 2.426 is 7th May 1987, version 2.435 is 25th May 1987, version 2.440 is 1st June 1987.

During 1985, when games like BC and KQ2 first came out, it was AGI V1 that was being used.

This is why we're saying that AGI 2.272 can't have been around in 1984.

[Threepwang]

Regarding AGI V2 versions, if you plot the AGI V2 version number against the timestamp of the AGI interpreter files (AGI and AGIDATA.OVL), you get a rough idea of when each AGI V2 version was released. For example, all the AGI v2.272 games are grouped around 13th November 1986. AGI V2.089 is 22nd September 1986. I have AGI v2.001 noted as 9th June 1986. I think then that AGI V2 development started early 1986, with the first version ready for release being early June 1986.

Version 2.411 & 2.425 are dated April 1987, version 2.426 is 7th May 1987, version 2.435 is 25th May 1987, version 2.440 is 1st June 1987.

During 1985, when games like BC and KQ2 first came out, it was AGI V1 that was being used.

This is why we're saying that AGI 2.272 can't have been around in 1984.

I bow to the evidence of your arguments. I have made corrections in my index. The 1986 edition is indeed the oldest known version on standard PC DOS.

I must say that I am such a purist with KQ1 that I would have liked to have a port on PC like the one on Apple II, so that I could translate it into French.

I have also added you to my acknowledgments at the top of the index page.

I still have 70 AGI and SCI games marked as 'Missing'; I hope to be able to test them one day. Lance, if you see any major errors in the index, please feel free to let me know.
Thank you very much!